DPS Balance Thread

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, someone got me confused on ceiling and floors, but in regards to the rest I managed to finish writing just brief summaries of the jobs and what I thought of them.

It’s all good. ^^

Regardless, I want to break the stupid chain that is DRG-BRD-MCH because of the fact that BRD/MCH's damage is heavily impacted by Disembowel. Without a DRG, BRD/MCH's damage is neutered by at least 300ish DPS, meaning that's more work for other jobs.

I do agree that something needs to be done about piercing. Until something is done about it (either removing it, or giving it to another job to offer another synergy option for BRD/MCH), the physical meta is going to continue to reign supreme for groups that care about min-maxing and optimization. Since the developers have stated that they cannot give BRD/MCH their own piercing because “too OP” (yet they are more than happy to allow the two jobs to be “OP” with a DRG, and continue to enforce the DRG/BRD/MCH Trio to the detriment of other comps... /salt), I would opt for it to be removed entirely. Buff DRG’s potencies to compensate, since they will suffer from the removal of it, but now BRD/MCH doesn’t have to worry about losing 5% of their damage just because the melee want to be NIN/MNK instead of NIN/DRG.

I think it’s something probably only BRD and MCH mains can really understand, but it is a terrible feeling to know that you lose ~300 DPS along just from no Disembowel—more for lack of Litany on BRD (because crit scaling)—and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. To raid with a DRG, and then go to raiding without one, and seeing your damage just drop 400~500 DPS while knowing there is nothing you can do to help it is an incredibly crappy feeling. I speak from experience lol.


I think it is good that JP players were the ones to speak out against how much piercing affects comps and BRD/MCH’s damage, and I also think that it’s good they were quick to call crap on the excuse about giving piercing to BRD/MCH as impossible “because reasons”. SE listens to them more than they do the NA/EU side I feel, so maybe this will get them to consider other options for piercing resistance down.

Low tier - SAM/BLM

Your highest personal dmg classes but provide the least amount of buffs if any at at all, usually labaled persona non grata as they take up spots for classes who offered more which currently is at a higher value than classes who offered nothing...

This is true. However, some groups actually opt to sub out MCH for BLM/SMN, if the BLM or SMN is really good. Because BLM is in a spot now where it can finally push enough numbers to offset the loss of a MCH. Physical meta comps will still favor the top-tier four, but I’ve seen more uploads where the MCH is subbed out for a BLM or a SMN. Which is good, but the developers still need to address the DRG/BRD/MCH Trio, and the only way to do that is to address piercing resistance down. Nerfing it from 10% to 5% from Heavensward to Stormblood, I think, they thought would be an adequate solution. But it didn’t work, because the meta is still the same in Sigmascape as it was in Creator. Just two casters now happen to be able to squeeze their way in if they are good enough.

SAM on the other hand.......it needs a lot of help right now.

[HyperiusUltima]

In regards to SAM, yes. I agree that it needs plenty of help right now in the fact that we're still stuck in the dark ages where solo doesn't match rDPS.

If anything, I can expect them to actually increase the potencies a bit on some of their strongest attacks and actually make SAM a powerhouse on the same level that BLM is currently. I don't know what they'll do, but it has to at least make SAM appealing to raid again otherwise we're going to wind up with Heavensward Syndrome.

[Remedi]

I think, piercing is a bit of a red herring considering trick attack, I mean you could try and give trick attack to another job, but then why not bringing that job + NIN for double trick? I mean piercing is strong and all but triple melee kinda works too, they could try to create a caster comp in some way to kinda balance it, but even then NIN would still be ther and once piercing gets resolved in any way it's only a matter of time that they'll become the focus of ppl hate just as piercing is now

[HyoMinPark]

I think, piercing is a bit of a red herring considering trick attack, I mean you could try and give trick attack to another job, but then why not bringing that job + NIN for double trick? I mean piercing is strong and all but triple melee kinda works too, they could try to create a caster comp in some way to kinda balance it, but even then NIN would still be ther and once piercing gets resolved in any way it's only a matter of time that they'll become the focus of ppl hate just as piercing is now

TA is strong, but Disembowel gives ~300 DPS for 1 ranged, and ~600 DPS for 2. The benefits of Disembowel over TA is more if you have double-ranged. And TA is not as beneficial to casters compared to physical jobs because they do not have autos to also benefit for the duration (and the same applies for Litany).

TA is good, but the physical meta is held together by piercing. It was the case in Creator, and it is still the case now. Triple melee only works because MNK was buffed. It wasn’t really viable during Deltascape, but it can be for certain floors of Sigmascape (V7S you probably do not want triple melee because of the Ink and Chakras—someone has to disengage between the melee DPS and the tanks—it’s not impossible, but someone is going to be losing uptime).

[HyperiusUltima]

So...given we already have the issues, what do we suggest they fix?

- Trick Attack: 10% Damage Up 10s duration.
This could be nerfed down to 5% to ensure that MCH has a place, given they also have a 5% except on a longer Cooldown and longer duration due to the refreshing from the turret. Only thing that NIN would have over everyone else is literally enmity mitigation.

- Disembowel: 5% Piercing Down Debuff. 100% Uptime all day everyday.
Removing all type debuffs as we think we should effects the entire way the game is perceived, since damage will be reduced and have to be compensated across all jobs that are effected(All Roles exempting Casters). DRG would also have to get its 10% Heavy Thrust back so that it'd get a bit more Solo to compensate.

That's only what I could think of that would fix some of our problems and open up the roster more, but I want to bet there's more problems the further down the rabbit hole we go with this in regards to rDPS.

[Powercow]

And TA is not as beneficial to casters compared to physical jobs because they do not have autos to also benefit for the duration (and the same applies for Litany).

Er, what? Maybe you're thinking oGCDs, but even then that only applies to Black Mage not being able to frontload a bunch of free bonus damage. Summoners and Red Mages can absolutely make use of short-term buffs like physical classes can.

Also, looking at the top speedkill for o6s (which does use triple melee), Trick Attack provided over three times as much raid DPS as Disembowel. It's the combination of Disembowel, Litany, and a teensy bit from the Eye that puts DRG just barely ahead of TA (1001 bonus damage from the dragoon's raid buffs, compared to 967 from Trick Attack.) There's also the much more difficult-to-measure value of Shadewalker, as determining how much more raid DPS you get from tanks using more DPS combos over threat combos adds to the overall raid DPS (it could be none, it could be a couple hundred, it's difficult to say for certain.) Any of the three Bard buffs beats Disembowel, hell even Brotherhood beats Disembowel in a quad-physical comp.

It's still awkward as hell that BRD and MCH is so heavily tied to Dragoon, it just seems like a bigger problem than others because unlike, say, Battle Voice's effect being neat for everyone, all of that power fluctuation is focused on 1-2 people. Losing Brotherhood is a small loss across 5 other players, losing Disembowel is a huge loss for 1.

[HyperiusUltima]

Also, looking at the top speedkill for o6s (which does use triple melee), Trick Attack provided over three times as much raid DPS as Disembowel.

Just a little thing to note: O6S is a dummy not including as many mechanics that force Melee out of range like the rest of the tier does. Disembowel's rDPS increases based on if there's a BRD/MCH included, and that's 600 DPS by itself if you have both. Does that not feel like it's heavily weighted unlike TA which has a cooldown and not 100% uptime?

[Powercow]

Just a little thing to note: O6S is a dummy not including as many mechanics that force Melee out of range like the rest of the tier does. Disembowel's rDPS increases based on if there's a BRD/MCH included, and that's 600 DPS by itself if you have both. Does that not feel like it's heavily weighted unlike TA which has a cooldown and not 100% uptime?

No. On God Kefka one of the top runs I found (same group as the Demon Chad group from my previous post, but slightly different comp) ran with BRD MCH DRG NIN. Trick Attack still provided 20% more raid DPS than Disembowel with both ranged.

[Remedi]

TA is strong, but Disembowel gives ~300 DPS for 1 ranged, and ~600 DPS for 2. The benefits of Disembowel over TA is more if you have double-ranged. And TA is not as beneficial to casters compared to physical jobs because they do not have autos to also benefit for the duration (and the same applies for Litany).

TA is good, but the physical meta is held together by piercing. It was the case in Creator, and it is still the case now. Triple melee only works because MNK was buffed. It wasn’t really viable during Deltascape, but it can be for certain floors of Sigmascape (V7S you probably do not want triple melee because of the Ink and Chakras—someone has to disengage between the melee DPS and the tanks—it’s not impossible, but someone is going to be losing uptime).

Yes, but piercing is easily fixed by either removing it or even better adding it to another job since 2 piercing don't stack, TA stacks with hypercharge and even if 2 jobs have access to it they can use it one after another which means you can't really fix it by spreading it.
Now beside that triple melee comp is creeping to the double ranged meta thanks to MNK buffs, which means that realistically speaking piercing is as strong as it was because you can drop one ranged (MCH realistically) when you consider all opf this in a vacuum only 1 class really stands out for beign always needed, that's why I say that atm piercing is kinda of a red herring
Also take consideration I'm considering without forced mechanics from a fight, fight plays a later hand in balance realistically speaking

[Aomine1992]

I believe piercing just needs to be removed all together and buff the physical range guy a little bit so that they arnt gimped without it, TA needs to be nerfed and then buff NIN personal dps, they had to nerf those AST cards becuase they were OP it's time to look at the meta comp dps if they ever plan on giving any other dps a chance becuase even if they make new ones if they don't fit the meta they will just sit on the bench with the rest..