How I wish Eureka was

[MageBlack]

You should double check your sources on that one.

My apologies, except for the end stage at the end of the expansion, and loaded to the nuts with Materia. But that is at the end so then we should be comparing the full relic process from attaining the initial weapon at the beginning then all the steps needed to take to get to that final product. Since we dont have that with Eureka yet, we should be comparing first step relic for 2.0 and 3.0 to 4.0, was it involved, insane, and super difficult to get?

Of course to the first, but imo it's very much worth sharpening our own creative teeth when we're given reason after reason to believe the dev team's has gnawed stale, ever-hardening design paths so long theirs have dulled.

I totally agree, theory crafting is fun to do and sometimes the devs might see a tidbit that sparks their imagination. That, I feel, is the whole point of this thread and those like it. No issues with that at all!

Sorry for the tangential comment, but it's actually that quality that makes it stand out to me as an area of wasted potential (e.g. perhaps even due to not enough resources going into it), much like Eureka, far more than your counterexamples (which were more alike to waste by aim/principal). PotD could be incredibly fun to just about everyone, and yet it's been left massively hit-or-miss, with a huge amount of its playtime owed to its speedy leveling advantages.

I do agree that PotD could have been, more. What I personally liked about it is its randomness, it showed me that SE is finally willing to make content that isnt completely scripted and because of its "success" (however you want to quantify it) it also told the devs that this style of content has potential. HoH will tell us if they are going to build on that "success" or if they are just going to reskin, afraid that changing it will be to risky. I'm hoping for bigger, more varied rooms, different mechanisms to open a floor, more mini-bosses, and this summoning thing really intrigues me, I hope its like that FC summoning they talked about eons ago.

Also I'm tired of this "All this time spent developing it and all the dealys and THIS is all we get?!?" If this was the ONLY step we got for all of 4.0 then I would agree with you but we will be seeing the next step come with each successive half patch. That means they have been working on all 4 stages of eureka as a whole piece of content. When we got PotD or Diadem, that was it, done. Then they worked on the next one for the next expansion. I'm not making excuses for what we got at the first stage but i'm not using that as a stick to beat them up with.

[KaldeaSahaline]

It would have to be split so you would have enough people interested in doing it to fulfill the mechanics.

Like you might need 20-25 ppl to do hard eureka smoothly. That's 1/6th on an instance, but thats probably pretty close to the total percentage of players who like hard content, 1/6th of 70s. So you'd risk not getting enough people, or keeping parties going when key roles leave. Having a hard server at least gets all the people on the same page.

You didn't even read the concept. It is for 8 people and can only be attacked by your party.

I don't know about good to play seem very boring to be honest...God of war was just a rip off Dante's infernal, which pretty much was a Devil May Cry,
which in turn was probably a rip off something else. They were not that good, from my perspective and everyone has different taste. Blizzard good lol funny.

Blizzard, as much as we love to hate them make good games. Almost every genre they participate in they are the golden standard/benchmark of it.

Don't let irrational bias cloud you, and just because they make good games doesn't mean it absolves them of any wrongdoings/failures.

Do you have anything on topic to discuss about my concept?

Was referring to activision-blizzard, and blizzard games in general, they are hardly ever creative, they were simply good to play.

Just like God of war, it's not creative in any shape or form, it's simply a good game, true it's a new take for the franchise and could be seen as new spin on it, but some might actually not like it for that, nevertheless it is a well crafted game and that's my point, we shouldn't ask for innovation, creativity or such we should ask for GOOD content as in it feels good to play and makes me want to spend my time even if it's just me playing a legend of zelda skin a god of war skin

While I wholeheartedly agree that good content sells itself and should be the hallmark goal, I find irrational bias towards blizzard saying they're "creatively bankrupt" a bit silly. They clearly create a ton of good things all the time. Even if they're just new paint/general innovations it still qualifies.

Let's not forget we're playing FF14, a game that uses nostalgia of existing games as content and has used the exact same formula for nearly 4 years with nearly no change.

That's what I think you arent understanding. The relic is the alternative to Savage, if you want a savage alternative to the relic, umm... do savage? The whole reason we have relic is so casuals can bridge the iLev gap between regular stuff and Savage. I know what you are asking for but your reasons are nonsensical. Your alternative already exists. Savage will ALWAYS be top tier and relic will ALWAYS be a step or two under that so why do you need a more challenging way to get something that is effectively just glamor for you? Seems like you are trying to make things more challenging just for the sake of having a challenge. (which isnt necessarily a bad thing) I mean, they cant even have more than one pathway through a dungeon, what makes you think they would split the path in something like eureka?

You think the relic is the casual alternative to SAVAGE raiding?

Not NORMAL mode raiding being the casual alternative to savage raiding?

You do realize how ridiculous that notion is right?

Maybe I really want the glamour because it's a unique model and considerably higher fidelity than any raid weapon and the only way to get one is to cut my wrists so I can stomach the boredom inducing grind. That's why I asked if you'd be ok putting that quality into the savage raid, and giving casuals a dyeable normal mode raid weapon in exchange.

You stated you were ok with this, and that tells me that ilvl is really the only thing relevant to you (and that's ok, I don't understand it, but that's ok).

Just because you didnt like PotD does not mean it wasnt one of the most successful additions to FFXIV to date. Have you made it to floor 200? I'm casual so I only made it to about 115 before I couldnt get people together to do it. If you want to talk about wasted dev time that could have gone to something better, why not bring up Lords of Verminion, Chocobo Racing, Diadem, and 90% of the golden saucer. all of it almost completely abandoned.

1) Just because PotD was successful doesn't mean it was good. It has good features for sure, but its success (much like Eureka's) was mostly due to the rewards put in place (i.e. stupidly easy/efficient leveling method or Relic stuff).

By that notion, they could have put Relic weapons in gardening. Everyone would do it, and you'd call that a success? I'd call that a felony.

2) I wrote numerous fairly in-depth reworks of all of those systems and a side system game design doc in general. Trust me I've gone over them I've been extremely vocal about my distaste for their implementation of GS/Choco Racing, and how LoV was a bad implementation of what could have been a good idea.

Yes, kinda. Since it would be much faster to get your relic I think all the skilled players will funnel towards it, the curious and lazy would tag along, and that would leave the rest unable to even do the NM train properly since they wont have enough people left to do it the "boring" way.

Curious and lazy players wouldn't succeed in this iteration. They wouldn't be able to spawn anything being lazy, they wouldn't be able to kill anything being lazy or curious. It's designed for savage/ex players and would be challenging and they would die and lose XP and retreat back to their existing methods.

That said, how many people do you think you could convince to come with you to take on the mythical master mobs when they could afk and get the same reward? Sure it may be quicker but it takes more effort.

It's not the same reward (but even if it was, we can always add other stuff to it). I get to enjoy the content (intangible high value reward), and get it done quicker. I could convince plenty of people to come. In fact, I polled the 26 people who were online in my FC and out of them 18 would have loved to do that rather than NM train. Of those 18 100% are savage raiders. Of the remaining 8, 3 of them like how peaceful chaining mobs/NM train was, 2 didn't care, 2 more said they'd try it but not sold, and 1 didn't unlock Eureka yet so had no input. The thing is, you like trivial content. That's ok. Nothing wrong with that. I don't and people like me don't. We want more content that has things for us to do.

I need more information on your scenario.
"Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage"
- so the current end relic will be the reward from savage? What will its iLev be? Would this mean there are not two rewards from Savage, would it still have the usual Savage rewards? You really want more duplicate gear in the game than we already have?
"You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests."
- What iLev will it be? (because this is important, its the reason we have relic as a casual alternative to savage).

To simplify - let's say completing level 20 and getting feathers etc, gives you the raid weapon (so diamond sword/shield, etc.) but it is dyeable. The only thing swapped is the graphic/model. Ilvls would be the same.

Savage players would be the ones getting the short end of the stick with an undyeable weapon.

Relic weapons are dyeable.

So your ochu would have two tentacles and a body to kill. at one point the body would become untargetable/invulnerable, you have to kill the tentacles, then back to the body? Something would have to happen to stop people from ignoring the tentacles and just burning the body. Sounds like a fun boss fight. But watch the fur fly if you have 4 parties trying to spawn the same mob and only one party get is and just camps it. It happened all the time in 11 and FFXIV has specifically spoken out against that kind of content.

You hadn't mentioned it, or i just missed that part. That there goes against the entire over world concept that FFXIV has carefully cultivated so they can have a more "fair" game for everyone. Not saying it isnt a good idea but I figured if they didnt do it in Eureka, they wont do it at all. Dungeons/raids/primals are your best bet for a claim system.

2 tentacles a body, and a bulb. The body is never untargetable or invulnerable. It always takes damage. It just takes damage like Shin EX does, in that if you kill the other parts they also damage the main body.

Ignore the tentacles and keep eating tankbusters every 20-30s sure. See how that works out

Every player gets a random treasure map type of item to go explore and spawn the monster. It's not competing against anyone else. You get one, I get one, and everyone in our party gets one. They send you randomly all over the map.

They'd obviously need to implement a system to prevent RNG overlap though.

My apologies, I may have mistaken your passion for your idea with anger for "plebs just not getting it" I hope I have been clear enough in my critique (and i'm just some random douche on the internet, you shouldnt really give a shit what I think, lol). Your ideas arent bad or impossible to implement, heck, it might make for good content for 5.0's Eureka. This game really needs to a lateral content injection and a rework of their rewards structure. All I was trying to say, and give reasons why i felt that way, is this idea of splitting Eureka into two path's is the part that wont work. Players are a hive mind in a lot of ways so once the "best way" is established by the community, that becomes the "only" way. Whether that means your way is better or the NM train is better, one way will become favored eventually leaving half the developed content wasted time.

I would like to take a moment to give you a huge THANK YOU! Even though we have both had our little digs here and there its been a great conversation. I feel I've been listened to and I hope you feel the same. Even though its huge walls of text, I think its been worth it. I recently tried engaging another poster but it was pointless since they were not listening from the get go, only trying to push their agenda and anyone who disagreed was stupid, dumb, and just didnt get it.

On-topic. Eureka is Guild Wars 2 with a magia board.

In GW2 there are no traditional quests. In every zone, there are multiple NPCs with hearts over their heads that you can perform a number of "tasks" for. Usually, this boils down to killing mobs until that NPC's task bar fills up. Then you are rewarded with XP and coin.

There are also other things to do in each zone to earn XP, but the best way is to join XP trains with large groups of players and run around killing outdoor bosses. Basically notorious monsters. Rinse and repeat until you level out of the zone.

That's Eureka in a nutshell.

Any chance you have any input on the actual concept?

[Remedi]

Half of blizzard products are essentially the same with simply a new coat of paint, the same can be said for every wow expansion, artifacts are not creative they essentially added gems and talents to a legendary quest and call it a day.

Also creative bankrupt is the fact that nothing they created was ever something they started, they are known for taking other ppl ideas and refining it.
That's why I say the content beign good must be the first priority, it doesn't need to be clever or anything it needs to be Good, so good that you want to play it again and again, that's because you have fun with it.
What's the point in adding stuff if we have contents with problems already? better to create good foundations first and then add things, and frankly they haven't done it some issues are still going since ARR yet we ask for creativity when the foundations are shaky.

[MageBlack]

I still think your idea would be better in its own system that branches off of Eureka. It could be flushed out more and expanded on easier.

Not casual alternative to savage raiding but a casual alternative to savage weapons. Which is why the iLev is where my focus is.

as for wanting the relic but not wanting the mind numbing grind, well there are a whole bunch of stuff in the game I want but I dont want to get it the way its currently presented. Love the Ranked PvP gear, but I want to get it from doing normal PvP. I'd really like the Ultimate Bahamut weapons, but I dont want to have to go through savage and ultimate to get it.

[Adeacia]

How about we combine ideas? All the hard stuff you want is the equivalent in difficulty of ultimate, but the rewards are the same as normal NMs.

You get your difficulty, but no actual advantage.

Oh, and normal mode raids are NOT the casual version of savage. When people want the best gear, there are 2 ways to get it: savage, and relic. Savage is really hard, relic is a huge grind for the people who can't do savage. In the end everyone gets the same ilevel gear in a different way.

[Shurrikhan]

Half of blizzard products are essentially the same with simply a new coat of paint, the same can be said for every wow expansion, artifacts are not creative they essentially added gems and talents to a legendary quest and call it a day.

Also creative bankrupt is the fact that nothing they created was ever something they started, they are known for taking other ppl ideas and refining it.
That's why I say the content beign good must be the first priority, it doesn't need to be clever or anything it needs to be Good, so good that you want to play it again and again, that's because you have fun with it.
What's the point in adding stuff if we have contents with problems already? better to create good foundations first and then add things, and frankly they haven't done it some issues are still going since ARR yet we ask for creativity when the foundations are shaky.

At least as much changes, especially in core design or philosophy, between WoW xpacs than XIV, GW2, etc.

I feel like this is more mob mentality at work than it is a fair a detailed investigation of the subject matter...

It's Blizzard's players who find themselves constantly in refrain of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," and Blizzard that half the time creates changes that the players finds to have been improvements, even if having believed the subject entirely functional before such a change (even if, on the other half, they do manage to make things worse...).

I really hope this isn't all turning into a "but look! they have it (even) worse!" when the alternative isn't actually as bad as it's made out to be. That's the stuff of dystopias, not rational critique.

[Remedi]

Not exactly, my point is that while they just add a new paint, the game feels good to play (well blizzard of old mostly) which mean they refined the gameplay, I think that some of the problem of the staleness is because of the game still beign quite rough, and SE should refine it.
Take dungeons for example, what are they good for? I Think SE really should stop for a second and really refine the gameplay aspect of the game, before they can really add something new.

[MageBlack]

OMG...

I was just thinking about it and it sounds like what the OP wants is Aurum Vale Hard Mode with a Magia board! Now there is a better way to pitch your idea!

[Shurrikhan]

OMG...

I was just thinking about it and it sounds like what the OP wants is Aurum Vale Hard Mode with a Magia board! Now there is a better way to pitch your idea!

But Aurum Vale has just as strong a gag reflex to many -- if not more -- as Eureka does, and no way to decide between route nor, likely, any way differentiate best element choice.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Half of blizzard products are essentially the same with simply a new coat of paint, the same can be said for every wow expansion, artifacts are not creative they essentially added gems and talents to a legendary quest and call it a day.

You ignored what I said. Even if we go the route of they only iterate, the fact that they iterate so well TAKES creativity. The point is though, that's not true. They do create, and sometimes they do some pretty impressive stuff. Stuff like Flex raids, wardrobe, scaling dungeons, procedurally generated AI based content, and some others.

Hate on artifacts all you want, but it was a viable and enjoyable change from chasing random weapons from past expansions. They had a few implementation flaws for sure and I won't handwave that away, but the core concept was good, and was implemented pretty well.

What's the point in adding stuff if we have contents with problems already? better to create good foundations first and then add things, and frankly they haven't done it some issues are still going since ARR yet we ask for creativity when the foundations are shaky.

On the topic of FF14, I agree. the foundations are shaky and need love. My concept is an attempt to build a better foundation for Eureka (not the game). In that it is more viable to more players, thus building a better start to expand on.

I still think your idea would be better in its own system that branches off of Eureka. It could be flushed out more and expanded on easier.

as for wanting the relic but not wanting the mind numbing grind, well there are a whole bunch of stuff in the game I want but I dont want to get it the way its currently presented. Love the Ranked PvP gear, but I want to get it from doing normal PvP. I'd really like the Ultimate Bahamut weapons, but I dont want to have to go through savage and ultimate to get it.

Fair criticism. I'll continue to disagree as I've stated countless times though. I don't want everything to be segregated because then we end up in the current situation where they have to design content on alternating patches for 2 distinct player types instead of putting a better and more efficient spread.

How about we combine ideas? All the hard stuff you want is the equivalent in difficulty of ultimate, but the rewards are the same as normal NMs.

You get your difficulty, but no actual advantage.

Oh, and normal mode raids are NOT the casual version of savage. When people want the best gear, there are 2 ways to get it: savage, and relic. Savage is really hard, relic is a huge grind for the people who can't do savage. In the end everyone gets the same ilevel gear in a different way.

Firstly, you didn't answer my 2 previous questions to you. I'll ask again:

Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage. No more glows, or unique models for Relics. You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests.

Are you ok with this?

The second:

What do YOU lose by me completing my relic in a different manner. Tell me specifically what pain points and issues you are faced with as a result of my accrual.

Why would you create additional difficulty with no advantage?

I'm absolutely dumbfounded though that you and MageBlack can suggest that NORMAL MODE raiding isn't the casual equivalent to Savage. It's literally the same name and art assets, yet it's not the equivalent. *rollseyes*