How I wish Eureka was

[RiyahArp]

Why would the instance need to be split? Why would the rules need to be different? It can easily exist in the same area based on the rules I outlined.

I already kind of outlined the rewards. It would allow me a savage/ex player to participate in content that is more challenging and would allow me to accrue resources more quickly than someone who chose the "easy/mindless" way. It allows me to have MY version of mine while you have yours and we both head to the same goal.

It would have to be split so you would have enough people interested in doing it to fulfill the mechanics.

Like you might need 20-25 ppl to do hard eureka smoothly. That's 1/6th on an instance, but thats probably pretty close to the total percentage of players who like hard content, 1/6th of 70s. So you'd risk not getting enough people, or keeping parties going when key roles leave. Having a hard server at least gets all the people on the same page.

[ManuelBravo]

Was referring to activision-blizzard, and blizzard games in general, they are hardly ever creative, they were simply good to play.

Just like God of war, it's not creative in any shape or form, it's simply a good game, true it's a new take for the franchise and could be seen as new spin on it, but some might actually not like it for that, nevertheless it is a well crafted game and that's my point, we shouldn't ask for innovation, creativity or such we should ask for GOOD content as in it feels good to play and makes me want to spend my time even if it's just me playing a legend of zelda skin a god of war skin

I don't know about good to play seem very boring to be honest...God of war was just a rip off Dante's infernal, which pretty much was a Devil May Cry,
which in turn was probably a rip off something else. They were not that good, from my perspective and everyone has different taste. Blizzard good lol funny.

[Remedi]

Believe it or not they were good once, they had good value proposition for example as in they were complete games, before they started chopping them off to maximise profit (SC2 campaigns) or stripping them to the bare bones (Overwatch aka lootbox simulator) to the point they don't represent their quality of old anymore.
Frankly I'm probably one of the most haded guy on blizzard products to the point I can safely say I'm a bit biased on them, but there was a time were blizzard name meant quality now not anymore

As far creativity goes, half their games are RTS more or less of the same kind, while the others are essentially refined versions of pre existing experiences, even OW is a mesh of existing games and probably the most creative game they had, if anything they are good painters since the coat of paint they use tend to make you forget about the core of the game and their seeking the casual market was what made them really popular (even though some of their games mechanics allowed them to had an hardcore fanbase for example SC broodwar and the structure of the game beign still very popular in KR).

Point is sometimes you don't need to be very smart of creative to succed, you need only to be good at what you are doing to make a good game and if SE instead of focusing toward something they seem to not be able to do start focusing on refining the content in the game they might have more success or so I think, afterall everyone is right in the end

[MageBlack]

So to be clear - you think it's ok that "casual" players get normal mode alternative to savage, but savage/ex players get no alternative to relic? You recited the same point I already rallied against. I VERY STRONGLY disagree that just because something was X in the past means it cannot be X + Y in the future.

That's what I think you arent understanding. The relic is the alternative to Savage, if you want a savage alternative to the relic, umm... do savage? The whole reason we have relic is so casuals can bridge the iLev gap between regular stuff and Savage. I know what you are asking for but your reasons are nonsensical. Your alternative already exists. Savage will ALWAYS be top tier and relic will ALWAYS be a step or two under that so why do you need a more challenging way to get something that is effectively just glamor for you? Seems like you are trying to make things more challenging just for the sake of having a challenge. (which isnt necessarily a bad thing) I mean, they cant even have more than one pathway through a dungeon, what makes you think they would split the path in something like eureka?

I didn't care for PotD much (and won't if HoH is the same). It's boring content to look at and play through and heavily gated by RNG, not skill. This actually kind of helps support my point though. The development that went towards HoH could easily have been applied to Eureka thus giving savage/ex players something to do in there. They could have then taken the time to ensure HoH had ample content for both "casual" and "hardcore" (I HATE using these words as a measure of skill btw, hence the parenthesis).

Just because you didnt like PotD does not mean it wasnt one of the most successful additions to FFXIV to date. Have you made it to floor 200? I'm casual so I only made it to about 115 before I couldnt get people together to do it. If you want to talk about wasted dev time that could have gone to something better, why not bring up Lords of Verminion, Chocobo Racing, Diadem, and 90% of the golden saucer. all of it almost completely abandoned.

Again, I wish there was a lot more endgame level stuff to do at all skill levels, something that doesnt become nerfed to pointlessness through the normal iLev progression treadmill the game is stuck in. I dont mind your ideas but I dont think they are a fit for Eureka, it would be more benificial to have its own content to support it which is why i suggested splitting Eureka into an Norm/EX versions or even call it something different all together that branches off from Eureka (so it can keep the elemental system at its core).

Wait - so you're implying that someone who's never set foot in savage is going to drop the mob chains/FATEs to participate because it's the path of least resistance? You realize that's incredibly inaccurate right?

Yes, kinda. Since it would be much faster to get your relic I think all the skilled players will funnel towards it, the curious and lazy would tag along, and that would leave the rest unable to even do the NM train properly since they wont have enough people left to do it the "boring" way.

Let me give you a personal example. I did Eureka right out the gate, got to 20, got two full sets of gear and weapons. I believe the intent of eureka was to have multiple smaller groups of like leveled players grinding mobs of an appropriate level in a camp where they will actually be gaining exp from each mob killed. Then when an NM pops, camps would break, run to the NM, engage and kill, then return to camps. That, to me, makes more sense as a piece of content. What i decided to do, since I got what i needed out of Eureka for now, was to delevel as far as I could go. That's level 10. I kept my mount and teleporting and all magia points. Now I figured I could get a group of people together of a similar level to play the game as I thought it was intended to be played. I spent three days trying to get people together to do it but no one wanted to. The exp per hour would have been higher cause you are not afk'ing and you wont be as bored since you would be actually participating.

That said, how many people do you think you could convince to come with you to take on the mythical master mobs when they could afk and get the same reward? Sure it may be quicker but it takes more effort.

I asked this to another poster, but they ignored me because it didn't fit their agenda.

Imagine this scenario:

Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage. No more glows, or unique models for Relics. You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests.

Are you ok with this?

I already kind of outlined the rewards. It would allow me a savage/ex player to participate in content that is more challenging and would allow me to accrue resources more quickly than someone who chose the "easy/mindless" way. It allows me to have MY version of mine while you have yours and we both head to the same goal.

Why would the instance need to be split? Why would the rules need to be different? It can easily exist in the same area based on the rules I outlined.

I need more information on your scenario.
"Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage"
- so the current end relic will be the reward from savage? What will its iLev be? Would this mean there are not two rewards from Savage, would it still have the usual Savage rewards? You really want more duplicate gear in the game than we already have?
"You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests."
- What iLev will it be? (because this is important, its the reason we have relic as a casual alternative to savage)

So to speak to your scenario as I think i understand it relic and Savage will have their current ilev tiers but the rewards will look the same but the casual mode will be dyable? I guess I would be ok with that but it seems like pretty bad design though and the Savage players would be the ones getting the short end of the stick with an undyeable weapon.

The reason I say split it is so both pathways have more even footing for getting to their goals. Maybe you enter Eureka and want to take your path but no one in that instance wants to. Now you are popping in and out of Eureka trying to get into an instance with people willing to do something the hard way. At least if the instances are split then you would have a much easier time of finding like minded players to do that hard content with. Still seems silly that you want a harder way to get the same thing. I would much rather have a hard mode with different rewards

They are mandatory.

Not sure if I mentioned it, but the mobs would be only available to fight by the party that spawned them. It wouldn't be zergable.

So your ochu would have two tentacles and a body to kill. at one point the body would become untargetable/invulnerable, you have to kill the tentacles, then back to the body? Something would have to happen to stop people from ignoring the tentacles and just burning the body. Sounds like a fun boss fight. But watch the fur fly if you have 4 parties trying to spawn the same mob and only one party get is and just camps it. It happened all the time in 11 and FFXIV has specifically spoken out against that kind of content.

You hadnt mentioned it, or i just missed that part. That there goes against the entire over world concept that FFXIV has carefully cultivated so they can have a more "fair" game for everyone. Not saying it isnt a good idea but I figured if they didnt do it in Eureka, they wont do it at all. Dungeons/raids/primals are your best bet for a claim system.

Your feedback was fine until this little bit. I'm not offended at all. I was defending my concept. I'm not perfect, there are obviously ways this could be improved. All I've asked for is for people to quantify WHY they feel the way they do and to go into detail.

My apologies, I may have mistaken your passion for your idea with anger for "plebs just not getting it" I hope I have been clear enough in my critique (and i'm just some random douche on the internet, you shouldnt really give a shit what I think, lol). Your ideas arent bad or impossible to implement, heck, it might make for good content for 5.0's Eureka. This game really needs to a lateral content injection and a rework of their rewards structure. All I was trying to say, and give reasons why i felt that way, is this idea of splitting Eureka into two path's is the part that wont work. Players are a hive mind in a lot of ways so once the "best way" is established by the community, that becomes the "only" way. Whether that means your way is better or the NM train is better, one way will become favored eventually leaving half the developed content wasted time.

I would like to take a moment to give you a huge THANK YOU! Even though we have both had our little digs here and there its been a great conversation. I feel I've been listened to and I hope you feel the same. Even though its huge walls of text, I think its been worth it. I recently tried engaging another poster but it was pointless since they were not listening from the get go, only trying to push their agenda and anyone who disagreed was stupid, dumb, and just didnt get it.

[Lium]

Just like God of war, it's not creative in any shape or form, it's simply a good game, true it's a new take for the franchise and could be seen as new spin on it, but some might actually not like it for that, nevertheless it is a well crafted game and that's my point, we shouldn't ask for innovation, creativity or such we should ask for GOOD content as in it feels good to play and makes me want to spend my time even if it's just me playing a legend of zelda skin a god of war skin

Slightly off-topic, but this is a pet peeve of mine. In entertainment these days, so little is actually creative or original. It's all stock. But to be fair, we are to blame for that. We, the consumers. We don't reward creativity and originality with our pocketbooks. We want familiarity. We just say we want innovation.

This isn't more prevalent anywhere than it is in video games.

[Remedi]

Well the first thing they told me when creating comics is that you shouldn't believe your idea original, some1 has already done that, we might have reached that point in games too

[Lium]

Well the first thing they told me when creating comics is that you shouldn't believe your idea original, some1 has already done that, we might have reached that point in games too

Originality is not necessarily in the idea, but in the way you tell the story. Because I agree, we've essentially been telling the same story for the last 5000 years or so.

Just tell it differently. But unfortunately, that doesn't sell. Especially nowadays, where we are becoming stupider and stupider.

[Lium]

On-topic. Eureka is Guild Wars 2 with a magia board.

In GW2 there are no traditional quests. In every zone, there are multiple NPCs with hearts over their heads that you can perform a number of "tasks" for. Usually, this boils down to killing mobs until that NPC's task bar fills up. Then you are rewarded with XP and coin.

There are also other things to do in each zone to earn XP, but the best way is to join XP trains with large groups of players and run around killing outdoor bosses. Basically notorious monsters. Rinse and repeat until you level out of the zone.

That's Eureka in a nutshell.

[HoodRat]

Savage will ALWAYS be top tier and relic will ALWAYS be a step or two under that

You should double check your sources on that one.

[Shurrikhan]

Regardless of how anyone wishes Eureka was, its not going to drastically change design like this since its already past the concept phase. Best we can hope for is the next Eureka to already have some more involved systems and branching paths designed into them but that's a give in as far as I'm concerned. The next Isle hopefully wont be the same as the first, if it is, then its clear to me the company is creatively bankrupt.

Of course to the first, but imo it's very much worth sharpening our own creative teeth when we're given reason after reason to believe the dev team's has gnawed stale, ever-hardening design paths so long theirs have dulled.

My own hope -- as while I disagree as to the extent of the downside of split paths I do agree that it could be significant, at least for queue times and community perception of ease -- is that with improvements to or against player and mob culling, we can see a more flexible selection of places in and paths from which to play, even while keeping their various difficulties on one map. I feel like this could easily accomplish that, however, so long as there isn't such a loud community section refusing any and all increased depth of content on principal.

Just because you didnt like PotD does not mean it wasnt one of the most successful additions to FFXIV to date. Have you made it to floor 200? I'm casual so I only made it to about 115 before I couldnt get people together to do it. If you want to talk about wasted dev time that could have gone to something better, why not bring up Lords of Verminion, Chocobo Racing, Diadem, and 90% of the golden saucer. all of it almost completely abandoned.

Sorry for the tangential comment, but it's actually that quality that makes it stand out to me as an area of wasted potential (e.g. perhaps even due to not enough resources going into it), much like Eureka, far more than your counterexamples (which were more alike to waste by aim/principal). PotD could be incredibly fun to just about everyone, and yet it's been left massively hit-or-miss, with a huge amount of its playtime owed to its speedy leveling advantages.