How I wish Eureka was

[KaldeaSahaline]

I was thinking to myself and something dawned on me. Why did Eureka cater to the common denominator instead of aiming upward? Let me expound on that for a second. Eureka at its core is one of two specific gameplay forms. Grind nameless mobs, or zerg FATE bosses. Neither of these qualify as engaging for a ex/savage quality player IMO.

So, why does Eureka not have ANYTHING in it to engage a stronger player? Why can't there be harder monsters to spawn that have actual interactions with the elements and magia board? Obviously your average player the risk to try and kill them simply isn't worth the reward, so only stronger players focus on them. Would it be bad if they got more resources/rewards or faster xp gain? Would that encourage players at the mid level to maybe try them out?

I fail to see how you can't have both exist simultaneously? That to me, is why when I see people defend it, I get frustrated. It's easy to say oh I enjoyed it because I got to afk with friends and bs and get rewards, but that's not good design (IMO). What they created felt really juvenile, and certainly not worth the dev time it took.

Below is a lengthy updated iteration on Eureka and its various systems.

First I want to look at the Magia Board and its elements. I expanded on the function of the Magia board below. My intent for this change is that it should have more effects than merely damage up/damage taken down.I'll cover my thoughts for this below.

Magia Board
In this iteration I don't think there's a need for magicite levels or choosing between offense/defense. I think simply choosing the element and gaining both offense and defensive perks is sufficient enough. Some of the effects may seem simply, but have specific interactions with monsters and their abilities. For instance, poisoning an enemy sound boring, but it might be needed to offset a passive healing effect. Especially used in conjunction with Fire.

Elements

• Fire
  Attack - Immolates an enemy reducing healing effects by x%
  Defense - Provides a HoT effect
  
• Wind
  Attack - Increases range of all attacks/abilities/spells by 10 yalms
  Defense - Take less damage the further from target you are
  
• Ice
  Attack - Chills enemies slowing incoming physical attacks and movement speed
  Defense - Grants immunity to slowing effects
  
• Lightning
  Attack - Attacks cause paralysis which slows cast speeds
  Defense - Increases movement speed by x%
  
• Water
  Attack - Poison an enemy dealing DoT
  Defense - Grants a small shield every x second
  
• Earth
  Attack - Reduces enemies defense
  Defense - Provides knockback immunity

Enemies:
One example I posted a while back would maybe be like treasure hunts. You get a key that you have to go find on the map and spawn the monster. Once spawned it belongs to only your group. It would be a larger than normal mob (think like any of the ARR fate boss styled models) and maybe have unique features and would be random (i.e. you wouldn't know until you spawned it). Enemies would use mechanics much more frequently than current design does. You would be constantly dealing damage, healing, switching targets, using cooldowns. Very high impact, high frequency mechanics.

Say you were fighting an Ochu. This Ochu might have it's body as a target, 2 whips, and its bulb. So 4 targets in total. A mob can be any element once randomly spawned. Depending on their element different abilities are empowered in different ways.

• The Whips use tank busters, but can be disabled by killing them both/reduced by killing one. However, the whips need to be "cut", so you'd want someone on WIND dealing damage that would destroy them
• The bulb contains the leafy sections so FIRE would destroy them, preventing its raidwide AOE, or maybe remove its passive HP regen
• The body takes damage from any of the other sub sections dying as well as general damage (think Shinryu tail)

Now imagine if you spawned a FIRE aspected Ochu. It's likely that it's resistant to FIRE so killing the bulb becomes less feasible. So now you have to use elements to help offset its new abilities. For instance maybe the FIRE Ochu has a the ability to spit lava balls out into the field that grow in size until someone with a WATER shield steps into it, which shrinks it.

Then you tie in the weather that empowers monsters of the same element, has environmental hazards, and negative effects attached to them.

Weather

• NA: Clear Weather - No Effect
• Fire: Heatwave - This causes slow damage over time to all players
• Wind: Hurricane - Tornadoes spawn and chase players and general gusts of wind push players in random directions periodically. Tornadoes that catch players launch them into the air, dealing moderate falling damage + inactive for a few seconds
• Ice: Blizzard - Obscures visibility and hides telegraphs
• Lightning: Thunderstorm - Darkens the skybox and think Ramuh EX lightning circles periodically spawning on individual players and the map
• Water: Rain - Drenches players amplifying Lightning damage taken and reducing Fire damage taken
• Earth: Sandstorm - A violent sandstorm rages through that obscures visibility, and spawns quicksand that sucks people toward it slowly. Would be hard to see, so you'd need to pay attention to where you're getting sucked towards

So the idea would be that weather cycles randomly (could even go back to back same pattern too, with maybe Bad Luck protection, i.e. can't go back to back more than once) every few minutes. Weather would empower any mobs of the same element boosting their damage/defense/HP, as well as amplifying their abilities. I'm not particularly impressed with the Rain weather effect, so always open to other ideas.

Let's take that Ochu for instance:

• A Fire Ochu during a Hurricane could ignite the tornadoes causing them move more quickly, and deal DoT if you got grabbed by one (in addition to the fall damage)
• An Ice Ochu during a Hurricane could freeze the tornadoes, which could provide cover to line of sight other mechanics
• A Lightning Ochu probably wouldn't have any synergy with a Hurricane.

The real danger (and reward) comes from fighting a Lightning Ochu, in a Thunderstorm. When the element and weather match, you get a super monster.

Remember the Ochu's base mechanics?

• The Whips use tank busters, but can be disabled by killing them both/reduced by killing one. However, the whips need to be "cut", so you'd want someone on WIND dealing damage that would destroy them
• The bulb contains the leafy sections so FIRE would destroy them, preventing its raidwide AOE, or maybe remove its passive HP regen
• The body takes damage from any of the other sub sections dying as well as general damage (think Shinryu tail)

A LIGHTNING Ochu might on its own not have the Leafstorm raidwide AOE, but instead has a Chain Lightning spell. It stuns a single random target (Think Susano EX) then immediately jumps to any player within x yalms dealing increased damage each time it jumps, and so on until there's no more targets within range. However, because this enemy is in its own element (weather), it's chain lightning now casts faster, and goes further (say x + y yalms), AND places a paralysis debuff on players (that needs to be cleansed). In addition, the tankbuster now causes a a short (say 6s) debuff that slows the tank by an increasing margin every second, and at the end of the timer, they explode taking the damage they took from the tank buster again in a raidwide AOE based on proximity.

A WIND Ochu's Leafstorm during a Hurricane might now have no cast and have a built in knockback. Alternatively, their tankbuster might shred tank armor, so it's imperative to make sure one tank takes both hits, and the other tank grabs aggro then off both. If both took one, they might not be able to sustain the auto attacks for too long. Because the Ochu is WIND elemental, and the whips are weak to WIND it means they're very hard to kill.

Ideally, these encounters would be like 4 minute fights. High impact, high frequency mechanics with lots of decision making and dynamic gameplay, ESPECIALLY if weather switches mid fight.

I feel like this dynamic of Magia Board -> Elemental Monsters -> Weather creates a really unique, ever changing adventure that would challenge (and hopefully reward appropriately) players like me, who don't find fighting trivial monsters, or zergs fun. The best part, is you could literally build this into the existing Eureka and change nothing to players who find the current design enjoyable. I don't think the weather has a negative enough effect on its own to offset the improved Magia Board that would upset the balance of the experience for them.

What do you think? Good ideas? Bad Ideas? Fun? Not Fun?

[DrWho2010]

it's a nice idea but i don't like the idea of a weather pattern having a constant bleed effect on your hp.

seems overly complex. There's really only 3 high level NM's in Eureka atm - Pazuzu is easy because people actually need it but most don't even want to bother spawning Amarok or Lamatsu most of the time. I don't think most of the playerbase would go for it imo.

[Adeacia]

Relic steps are never about skill, but time. You want stuff for Savage players? It's called Savage.

Relic is for people who don't do Savage. Thus, it doesn't require skill since it's catered to people who may lack it. Giving more skilled players an advantage defeats the very purpose of it.

I agree that Eureka could be more interesting, but only if it works for even the most unskilled players, since again, that's the point.

[Shurrikhan]

Relic steps are never about skill, but time. You want stuff for Savage players? It's called Savage.

Relic is for people who don't do Savage. Thus, it doesn't require skill since it's catered to people who may lack it. Giving more skilled players an advantage defeats the very purpose of it.

I agree that Eureka could be more interesting, but only if it works for even the most unskilled players, since again, that's the point.

Available difficulty =/= difficulty floor. Why remove the option for reiterable and long-lasting content for multiple skill levels when you will always have the previously held option of grinding out the requirements against lower level mobs, zerging brainlessly, etc.? You don't lose your ease of nauseam just because others become newly able to have fun with the content type. If you want to keep plugging away mindlessly, have at it. Why should others be forbidden changes to make the content fun for them alongside what's already fun for you?

Because it's a bit slower? Because far exceeding effort gives an efficiency advantage? Note that there was a significant time advantage for Alexander speedruns in order to farm unidentified items and later light, as well... There has always been an advantage for putting in more effort, and that effort has never been limited to purely time spent.

[Lium]

Relic steps are never about skill, but time.

This right here. I just tried out Eureka for the first time tonight. I have to say, I disliked the experience. A lot. It's clearly designed as a grind and timesink. In fact, you can even tell Krile that. "It's needlessly complicated." So, the devs know what they are doing.

For the amount of time I spent in there, I got 1.5 levels and one crystal. It takes like 50 to upgrade or get new gear, so the thought of going there every night for hours to grind with nothing to show for is making me cringe. Like, here we go with this crap again. It's easier just to do roulettes for tomestones.

Also, I was doing it solo. Which is doable, but it's clearly designed to be done in groups since all the monsters hit like mack trucks.

[Sove92]

I just hoped it wouldn't have been a glorified fate farm...

[KaldeaSahaline]

it's a nice idea but i don't like the idea of a weather pattern having a constant bleed effect on your hp.

seems overly complex. There's really only 3 high level NM's in Eureka atm - Pazuzu is easy because people actually need it but most don't even want to bother spawning Amarok or Lamatsu most of the time. I don't think most of the playerbase would go for it imo.

My goal was not to design for "most of the playerbase".That's already covered by the current function of Eureka. My goal was to add something into it for EX/Savage level players so they have something engaging to do in there. It's intended to be somewhat complex in order to be challenging and keep you on yours toes.

Relic steps are never about skill, but time. You want stuff for Savage players? It's called Savage.

Relic is for people who don't do Savage. Thus, it doesn't require skill since it's catered to people who may lack it. Giving more skilled players an advantage defeats the very purpose of it.

I agree that Eureka could be more interesting, but only if it works for even the most unskilled players, since again, that's the point.

I understand that, but I think that's incredibly juvenile design. Why can't Savage players have an alternative path to Relics? Savage is great and all, but it's 4 fights. Fights, I and others have been done for a while now.

Is it really such a crime for me to finish my relic sooner than you because I chose to engage in a more difficult path? Higher difficulty should lead to higher reward. Does me having my relic in ANY way shape or form negatively impact your experience?

Do you by any chance have any input on the actual mechanics therein? Good? Bad? in between?

[DrWho2010]

I understand that, but I think that's incredibly juvenile design. Why can't Savage players have an alternative path to Relics? Savage is great and all, but it's 4 fights. Fights, I and others have been done for a while now.

Is it really such a crime for me to finish my relic sooner than you because I chose to engage in a more difficult path? Higher difficulty should lead to higher reward. Does me having my relic in ANY way shape or form negatively impact your experience?

guess you're just too good at the game. *shrug* you already get the good stuff by beating savage. you might as well unsub til the next raid tier.

[Sigma-Astra]

guess you're just too good at the game. *shrug* you already get the good stuff by beating savage. you might as well unsub til the next raid tier.

I don't see why what they're asking for results in that they need to be told to unsub? There's really not much else to do in Eureka besides killing Pazuzu over and over again until you have all of the weapons. What's so wrong with asking for a bit more of a challenge to the content that still doesn't affect the other people wanting to do things the normal way but allows another avenue of entertainment for others?

I mean, at level 20, all you really care for is Pazuzu at that rate and you're just killing the other NM's to waste time....either that or standing around the hub town AFK waiting for wraiths to show up.

[MageBlack]

Do you by any chance have any input on the actual mechanics therein? Good? Bad? in between?

Theory crafting like this is fun and all but with the content already basically set in stone, I doubt they will take any of these ideas into account. They may already have plans for some of this stuff, if so, excellent, you have a few neat ideas. If not, well I hope you arent setting your expectations based on this being implemented, if so I'm willing to bet you will be disappointed.