Red Mages need some love

[EllieShadeflare]

Except it isn't. I honestly don't understand this viewpoint. -We've had skills removed from jobs, added to jobs, changed while in a job, still existing in the game but removed from jobs, effects changed by temporary buffs provided by a job-.

Not the same thing as entirely removing a skill from a class's moveset before you can get the job, and expecting that skill to be in that job's skillset. (And before you try to use it as an example, Miasma II is after level 40. It does not support your argument).

This is an entirely speculative argument, but the fact is -they can do it-. The difference is how much work goes into it, which honestly, in the worst case, isn't much (Cutting off access, and adding it manually to Scholar 22), and at best, is a database edit (Removing it from Arcanist, since Scholar's already has it)

How do you know that it is as simple as you think it is? It makes sense that Sustain and Miasma II could return, they weren't entirely removed from the game, just dummied out. However, not only would they have to remove Raise for Scholar (and who knows if they could put it back starting at level 22) but Summoner would need to gain a new skill to replace it. You have to think through the implications of what you're suggesting.

Blah, I'm so sick of this "illusion of choice" term tossed around. You can stretch that term out enough to qualify anything with variety and turn it into bland applesauce for that very reason. Hell, I can even stretch that out to say even class choice is an illusion since only proven, optimal classes are viable for the respective roles.

In most MMO's there are really 4 roles = tank, healer, single-target DPS, and AoE DPS, so the perfect MMO with absolutely no illusion of choice should only have 4 classes. I.e. war, priest, rogue, mage, and all pre-determined. Any deviation from that will only add an illusion of choice. And there is no clunkiness whatsoever with that! Thus, the perfect MMO...or is it?

Sounds kinda boring though if all MMO's did that no?

So maybe this so called "illusion of choice" and clunkiness is needed to keep some things interesting? No?

wow, that's a complete misrepresentation of that term as it applies to the issues of talent trees and how toxic players use those to bully others, and it's honestly word salad. But you know what? I'mma try to dissect it. (also, fun fact, you can edit your posts to include more characters inside of them. Double posting is generally a no-no)

Blah, I'm so sick of this "illusion of choice" term tossed around. You can stretch that term out enough to qualify anything with variety and turn it into bland applesauce for that very reason. Hell, I can even stretch that out to say even class choice is an illusion since only proven, optimal classes are viable for the respective roles.

Not my point, or anyone else's when they bring up the term of "illusion of choice". The point of the term is to refer to the fact that no matter what sorts of skills you put onto a class/job/whatever, there will always be that optimum build that people will want. This wasn't a problem when the oldest of MMOs were hyper focused in what they did and had one-note classes that did a job and did them well. In fact, WoW, FFXI and certain other MMOs that attempted more free form ways of handling builds came as a middle time, and we're kinda returning to those older days.

And the kicker? No matter how broad you can make your skillsets or talent trees or whatever, you're still gonna be stuck with jerks who will demand your builds be a specific way. Hell, RIFT gets that issue too, and it's even WORSE if the article included is to believed, as the illusion of choice actually is so broad that if you want to play how you want but also play optimally, you literally have to focus on a single build based on specific skills or else you're not doing competently. In a weird sense, the more free a system is, the more limited it is for players who still want to raid, do PvP or other forms of high-end content. https://www.mmorpg.com/columns/illusion-of-choice-1000007617

In most MMO's there are really 4 roles = tank, healer, single-target DPS, and AoE DPS, so the perfect MMO with absolutely no illusion of choice should only have 4 classes. I.e. war, priest, rogue, mage, and all pre-determined. Any deviation from that will only add an illusion of choice. And there is no clunkiness whatsoever with that! Thus, the perfect MMO...or is it?

actually kirby team clash deluxe is really fun and only has four roles, i feel so attacked

In all seriousness, your assessment of the roles is usually false and you clearly are trying to make a strawman out of the complaint of the illusion of choice. But firstly, we generally use the trinity of Tank, Healer and DPS. That said, DPS is then usually classed as either support or pure damage, though some MMOs do have the differentiation of AoE and ST DPS that you point out, or some combination of the four.

But again, the oldest of MMOs and even FFXI to a great extent had jobs that did specific tasks and did them well. Add too much choice to a job, and you'll have wars between those who will demand specific specs and builds (See: the constant power struggles among mages and Fury and Arms Warriors in WoW). Having three broad roles with jobs that bring their own flavor to their roles seem to be the best choice as far as I can see.

At least then, the choices aren't fake.

[Kabooa]

How do you know that it is as simple as you think it is?

What makes you think it's so convoluted? For all the joking we make, they aren't incompetent programmers or organizers of information.

Your argument has the same foundation mine does, only I'm assuming competence when it comes to them. And when it comes to that, you aim for simple organizations over complex ones, especially if there isn't much a difference in the data usage involved.

[Arcanist] + [Change according to Summoner or Scholar or Null Stone attached]

or

[Arcanist]
[Summoner]
[Scholar]

How much of a difference is there really in storage size here? Minimal. Which one is easier to code around? The second.

[EllieShadeflare]

What makes you think it's so convoluted? For all the joking we make, they aren't incompetent programmers or organizers of information.

Your argument has the same foundation mine does, only I'm assuming competence when it comes to them. And when it comes to that, you aim for simple organizations over complex ones, especially if there isn't much a difference in the data usage involved.

[Arcanist] + [Change according to Summoner or Scholar or Null Stone attached]

or

[Arcanist]
[Summoner]
[Scholar]

How much of a difference is there really in storage size here? Minimal. Which one is easier to code around? The second.

I'm assuming the worst ends because the FFXIV 1.0 team was incompetent under the original director, and A Realm Reborn is still a mostly rebuilt version of that, with some of the incompetencies that come with it. This included the highly flawed and broken split of Arcanist into Summoner and Scholar.

Also, once again, without the option of raising in the SMN's roster, what will replace it in the skillset? Can't just remove it and give nothing, that's bad design and players will complain about losing one of the unique aspects of Summoner.

[Kabooa]

I'm assuming the worst ends because the FFXIV 1.0 team was incompetent under the original director, and A Realm Reborn is still a mostly rebuilt version of that, with some of the incompetencies that come with it. This included the highly flawed and broken split of Arcanist into Summoner and Scholar.

Also, once again, without the option of raising in the SMN's roster, what will replace it in the skillset? Can't just remove it and give nothing, that's bad design and players will complain about losing one of the unique aspects of Summoner.

Nothing. Current Summoner may not be the easiest to play but it currently doesn't lack anything to make it desirable. Bad design is just as much giving a Job something it no longer needs, or should not have had to start. Sometimes you need to cut something out, especially when it has no bearing on the core gameplay of the job.

Oh, you know what.

They can have better spell animations.

Painflare: Demi-Ifrit blasting an area with fire
Fester: Demi-Titan punching someone
Bane: Demi-Garuda doing...stuff.