I want to talk about tempering

[LineageRazor]

No need to kill her, we don't really kill the tempered anymore. Instead we invite them to conferences so they can (big shock) attempt to summon their primal and convert everyone .

As much as folks give Lyse crap about that, it's not as though they just opened the doors to them. They took plenty of precautions to avoid a summoning. In a game of security versus intrigue, one side is going to win out over the other, and this time intrigue won - the danger came not from the delegates, but from the tempered HUMANS that they had secretly installed.

Also, it was not unreasonable to try to negotiate with the Dreamers. Tempered individuals CAN be reasoned with. Their ultimate loyalty will always be to their Primal, but that doesn't mean that they're mindless berserkers. They work in the best interests of their Primal, and if the best interests of their Primal is to lay low and cooperate with the heathens, that's just what they'll do - at least, until they see a moment to gain the upper hand. This would even work with the Amal'ja, if Ul'dah could gain a sufficiently strong hand against them. Given the choice between curbing their rapacious tempering habits and being wiped off the map, they could likely be convinced to ease off on the kidnapping a while.

Lyse and the others wanted to avoid open warfare with the Dreamers, and given that Lakshmi's MO is more along the lines of allowing her followers to wallow in a false paradise, rather than active conquest, there was every reason to believe that a peaceful solution could be reached. Unfortunately, their leader had a personal grudge with the Warrior of Light, due to our breaking the Dream and causing her faux daughter to disappear. She wasn't after conquest, per say, but revenge, and saw the tempering of all the alliance leaders as a great way to get that revenge.

[Vulcwen]

It's definitely interesting to discuss this. I think tempering can be reversible, based on two facts we know so far:
- Someone with the Echo/Resonance can take control of a primal.
- A primal (Bahamut) can undo their own tempering effects.
This would suggest there is a way to revert tempering by forcing a primal to revert it.

[Eloah]

I think the later half of HW, and SB so far, has shown us that tempering isn't as cut and dry as we believe it to be. Our liitle Kobold friend, though in a catatonic state, does not appear to be tempered. Remember Alphinaud and Alisaie were there as well and removed him when they left. Lyse and Alisaie were there when Susano was summoned. And all 3 where around an already summoned Lakshmi; not to mention the meeting where she was summoned.

I think the devs are trying to give us a better understanding of Eikons, that tempering is not as one way as we may think. Probably the mental state of the primal plays a part. Ifrit and Garuda are just evil and crazy so they probably temper willy nilly. But Titan is a neutral Primal neither good nor evil; he just wants to protect his children. A good number of the Kobolds you get to talk to, as well as, interact with, indicate a worship of Titan but not in abundance. In that regard it's hinted that the Kobolds are like the Sylph and the Goblins, there are more good/neutral than bad. Remember, they had/have a truce with Limsa, to live codependantly. The first thing Titan did, when summoned, was punish the two Kobolds by killing them, but he just pushed, not gently though, Ga Bu towards us. Titan sensed his own rage, and tried to, forcibly get his remaining child to safety. I may be reading into it more than needed, but it makes sense.

And, in SB, when Susano was summoned, there was no tempering. We can't even say for sure the Red are tempered, they are just mercinaries. But, Susano praises you and says we must celebrate, granted the celebration is a fight, but there is no malcontent. And he outright states, to honor those who have guarded and protected him for all that time he shall fight on their behalf. In a sense he's fighting you similarly to Ramuh, just for fun, not to test your worth.

And with Lakshmi, she actively tried to temper you with her aether. She is evil yes, but her mind isn't "deranged" like some of the others. The fact that we were able to use our own aether to stop hers hints that tempering could be reversed, if not prevented.

Also there are the 3 new Summoners. They were doused in Primal aether, but are fine, and can practice summoning because of it.

[ObsidianFire]

That's my reading on the Titan scene too. There's plenty of mundane reasons for Ga Bu to be catatonic/mute after that indecent that have nothing to do with tempering.

I don't think Lakshmi is actually evil. She sees herself as someone who can ease other people's burdens and make people's hard lives easier. Both sub-tibes of the Ananta even agree on that. The problem the non-tempered Ananta have with Lakshmi, the primal, is that she doesn't give them a choice in the matter while they think Lakshmi, the goddess, would respect their choice in the matter.

That does bring up something I've been wondering since we killed Bismark. We're getting more and more eikons where everyone in the best tribe worships them even if they don't summon them as an eikon. Does the worship of the people who don't think the eikon is the actual god count for anything?

'Cause if the Garleans think it does, it would go a long way in explaining why they think religion is so bad...

[Anonymoose]

Their ultimate loyalty will always be to their Primal, but that doesn't mean that they're mindless berserkers.

Often true, but beware generalized statements. Depending on the individual's original nature, the strength of the tempering, the amount of times tempered, etc., mindless berserkers aren't uncommon, either. We have examples of tempered who are pretty much themselves but have "found God" and cannot be convinced otherwise. We have examples of more or less normal, functioning people acting as sleeper agents because of their unshakeable belief in the primal. We have seen people who just yell "FOR THE LORD OF WHATEVER" and go to battle against hopeless odds.

Complexity of their usefulness varies, it's their obedience that's absolute. What active orders they've been given "for God" plays a lot into it.

Side Notes...

Ga Bu
I think Ga Bu being (SEEMINGLY) lightly tempered for a short time by a primal that was party in his own image and gave him no active orders is going is about as optimistic as we can get, but we'll have to see. Maybe that's our gateway to more reliable information.

Lakshmi
Agreed. Not inherently evil. She seems to be the result of a paradox, to me. Primals that are summoned to be gods think that they are true gods. The Qalyana asked God for deliverance from something that they themselves believed was hopeless. Lakshmi is the result, offering them an escape into a blissful dream ... "Salvation". In turn, she sees your rejection as paradoxical, and when only "The Saved" provide crystals, if she can't manipulate people into accepting salvation, she gets angry.

Susano
Susano seems like one of those primals that's not thought of in a way that's conducive to spreading and tempering and conquering and defeating adversaries. He's just a jolly old false-kami that revels in all sorts of things. Granted, he'll still drain the land of aether and eventually aura-temper those around him, so he had to be put down, but otherwise on the lower end of the primal threat tier.

[ChaoticCrimson]

Some more food for thought - Even if we can assume the initial part of the tempering process to be similar in all cases, or at least similar enough that the Echo can prevent it universally, once the tempering takes hold of someone the effects of the actual "changing" process could also perhaps vary from primal to primal. That would add an extra layer of complexity for attempting to revert a thrall back to normal. For even if one were to discover a way to reverse the tempering from the thralls of one primal, that same process may not work the same way for those enthralled to another primal. Given how we've noted that thralls react in differing ways based on the primal they're being made to serve, it wouldn't be unthinkable that the link that binds that tempering is enacted in differing ways as well. It could certainly be possible that there's no universal "cure" for tempering. But again, we just don't have enough info atm to confirm this is the case.

[Eloah]

Well, maybe not outright "evil" but she is definately bad. If she was doing as most indicate, trying to bring peace, then her demeanor wouldn't change. The fact that her personality does a complete 180 when we defy her shows her true colors. Sophia is the one trying to bring peace (balance). Granted it's not in the best way, but she ramains calm. Lakshmi outright indicate follow me or I'll kill you. It shows that she is aware what she is doing is for her benefit not yours.

[ChaoticCrimson]

Well, maybe not outright "evil" but she is definately bad. If she was doing as most indicate, trying to bring peace, then her demeanor wouldn't change. The fact that her personality does a complete 180 when we defy her shows her true colors. Sophia is the one trying to bring peace (balance). Granted it's not in the best way, but she ramains calm. Lakshmi outright indicate follow me or I'll kill you. It shows that she is aware what she is doing is for her benefit not yours.

I think of Lakshmi as more of a single-mindedly "lawful neutral" entity. Her sole reason for being is essentially to bring everyone into a dream of peaceful, blissful ignorance under her care, for better or worse. She doesn't appear able to comprehend why anyone wouldn't want that, and so when she comes across anyone who doesn't conform to her bliss willingly her first instinct is to try to temper them in order to force them to see "reason". When that fails, she is unable to abide those who would defy the dream she is trying to create, and will attempt to destroy them, all while both continuing to try to tempt her defiers to rethink their stance or outright chastising them in utter frustration. She doesn't have any evil machinations in play, nor a righteous agenda of justice. She only cares about absolving all but bliss, by any means necessary. To her, that bliss is the "law" the world must abide by, and any other viewpoint is abhorrent.

[Eloah]

snio

For the most part this is what I am indicating. I guess Lawful Neutral fits, not that familiar with that system, as archaic as it is. Now I think I have to rethink Ravana.

[Remedi]

Ga Bu
I think Ga Bu being (SEEMINGLY) lightly tempered for a short time by a primal that was party in his own image and gave him no active orders is going is about as optimistic as we can get, but we'll have to see. Maybe that's our gateway to more reliable information.

I wonder though, do you think that it's possible that Ga Bu actually has the echo and subdued Titan to his will due to sheer despair?