I want to talk about tempering

[Biridan]

That does bring up something I've been wondering since we killed Bismark. We're getting more and more eikons where everyone in the best tribe worships them even if they don't summon them as an eikon. Does the worship of the people who don't think the eikon is the actual god count for anything?

'Cause if the Garleans think it does, it would go a long way in explaining why they think religion is so bad...

I've been wondering about worship of the 12 in that regard. Well technically we've already seen the result of worship of Halone. It requires more than just worship. It requires crystals and a ritual. Although the SB primals kinda thumbs it's nose at the ritual part.


As an aside. These primals consume crystals and aether. Is that what is weakening Hydaelin?

[ChaoticCrimson]

Some more food for thought - Even if we can assume the initial part of the tempering process to be similar in all cases, or at least similar enough that the Echo can prevent it universally, once the tempering takes hold of someone the effects of the actual "changing" process could also perhaps vary from primal to primal. That would add an extra layer of complexity for attempting to revert a thrall back to normal. For even if one were to discover a way to reverse the tempering from the thralls of one primal, that same process may not work the same way for those enthralled to another primal. Given how we've noted that thralls react in differing ways based on the primal they're being made to serve, it wouldn't be unthinkable that the link that binds that tempering is enacted in differing ways as well. It could certainly be possible that there's no universal "cure" for tempering. But again, we just don't have enough info atm to confirm this is the case.

[Eloah]

Well, maybe not outright "evil" but she is definately bad. If she was doing as most indicate, trying to bring peace, then her demeanor wouldn't change. The fact that her personality does a complete 180 when we defy her shows her true colors. Sophia is the one trying to bring peace (balance). Granted it's not in the best way, but she ramains calm. Lakshmi outright indicate follow me or I'll kill you. It shows that she is aware what she is doing is for her benefit not yours.

[ChaoticCrimson]

Well, maybe not outright "evil" but she is definately bad. If she was doing as most indicate, trying to bring peace, then her demeanor wouldn't change. The fact that her personality does a complete 180 when we defy her shows her true colors. Sophia is the one trying to bring peace (balance). Granted it's not in the best way, but she ramains calm. Lakshmi outright indicate follow me or I'll kill you. It shows that she is aware what she is doing is for her benefit not yours.

I think of Lakshmi as more of a single-mindedly "lawful neutral" entity. Her sole reason for being is essentially to bring everyone into a dream of peaceful, blissful ignorance under her care, for better or worse. She doesn't appear able to comprehend why anyone wouldn't want that, and so when she comes across anyone who doesn't conform to her bliss willingly her first instinct is to try to temper them in order to force them to see "reason". When that fails, she is unable to abide those who would defy the dream she is trying to create, and will attempt to destroy them, all while both continuing to try to tempt her defiers to rethink their stance or outright chastising them in utter frustration. She doesn't have any evil machinations in play, nor a righteous agenda of justice. She only cares about absolving all but bliss, by any means necessary. To her, that bliss is the "law" the world must abide by, and any other viewpoint is abhorrent.

[Eloah]

snio

For the most part this is what I am indicating. I guess Lawful Neutral fits, not that familiar with that system, as archaic as it is. Now I think I have to rethink Ravana.

[ObsidianFire]

Nope. One thing all eikons have in common is that the will/desires the summoners have when they summon the eikon are a big part of the eikon's motivations. In Ga Bu's case, his frustration against his parent's murderer was what led to Titain being summoned. The very first thing Titian does is kill Ga Bu's parent's murderer.

This is why Zenos taking over Shinryuu is so shocking. The big desire Ilbred (and the rest of his followers had) when Shinryuu was summoned was anger against Garlemald. Zenos turns that on it's head.

[Eloah]

snip

You aren't wrong, per se, bit you have to remember each of these eikons has a distinct mythos that shapes the main part of their being. Think of them sorta like a SCHs faerie, and this will be a major simplification. They have their memories and core personality stored somewhere, that reforms when resummoned. But depending on the thought process when they are summoned, that will effect their actions; in a "similar" way to summoning Lily as either Eos or Selene. Again, an over simplification, but it conveys the notion.

[Remedi]

Yes but titan's eyes changed color after he was summoned, which I think it means something changed after he was summoned not before, it could be possible that Ga bu was foreshadowing what was going to happen with Zenos, if it ends up that he has the echo.
However it's true that everything points towards the summoning itself beign what fueled the change, so i guess it's something that they deliberately left out to make us wondering

[Remedi]

So far it was a deliberate act on screen if I remember well.
Ifrit and shinryu used blue flames
Laskhmi used blue sphere and fireballs
and Garuda used wind on us
The devs also confirmed Ramuh to only temper on request
I don't recall other instances where we assisted to direct tempering, but I would say that tempering requires a direct contact with the primal aether in some form.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Unless I remember wrongly, there's a difference between primals and eikons, and it's not just a mistake in etymology by the Garleans.

The Allagans used "eikon" to refer to a particular class of entities -- the Warring Triad, for example -- but, admittedly, it's still not clear exactly how eikons differ from primals.

It seemed, though, that with regard to the Warring Triad, all three eikons were capable of inadvertently tempering individuals who came too close to them.

Frustratingly, Odin/Zantetsuken is also an eikon, by Allagan reckoning, but its tempering effect appears to be more deliberate.

So, in short, there are different varieties of tempering, and it does appear to be deliberate in many cases. The Scions who encountered Ramuh, for example, were not affected, because the primal chose not to temper them.