Increasing difficulty in casual content ≠ Savage

[kikix12]

I think the game needs more enemies that do actions you have to respect more and aren't just generic cone AoEs.

The crocodiles are "interesting" in that they use AoE against people getting behind them. No one goes there, they don't use it. And why is that interesting?! They stop attacking the tank while they charge that attack, so it's possible to bait them by entering their range to lower damage. A bard/machinist can even do that without any loss of attacks at any point. A simple mechanic using a simple cone AoE, doesn't affect difficulty, but rewards a smart play style. However, the crocs never appear in pulls where it really matters from what I can remember...

[RiyahArp]

The crocodiles are "interesting" in that they use AoE against people getting behind them.

Except that for melee...you have to be behind them for one to two thirds of your attacks in order to get the highest potency, which removes any idea of baiting. It actually punishes a smart playstyle by forcing potency losses, especially for monk. So those kind of mechanics can be a double edged sword.

Those aren't lose conditions but minor annoyances no different than Skalla forcing you to partake in a mini-game. A perfect example of how poorly tuned dungeons are is the first boss of Hell's Lid. He puts a vulnerability stack on for each swipe yet the damage is so inconsequential, you rarely see tanks bother dodging. I have gotten 5-6 before and still haven't been brought down to half my HP. If that is the "lose condition," not only does it accomplish absolutely nothing it only reinforces the mindset people can get hit by things and shrug it off no problem. Even Kefka normal suffers, though to a lesser extent. I flat-out will not dodge his fake Blizzards because I can heal myself through the damage with just Bloodbath. What about the vulnerability stack? One stack means very little, especially with how significant heal potencies are.

You can increase the risk of both these mechanics without going the OHKO route. Leveling dungeons are standing proof of that. Weeping City and Dun Scaith have few one shot mechanics yet pose a challenge for the average player.

Lose conditions mean failing the mechanic, not losing the fight.

Also, tanks honestly are OP in terms of mitigation. If those swipes hit melee it can get pretty brutal. Kefka normal seems easy, but at lower ilvls and later in the fight the vuln stacks hurt, especially for new players who don't get the grave image things right away. Especially the gaze mechanic, because if i remember right, its from the image not from Kefka. Kind of works out that two or three can mean you die later in the fight, especially if they cause you to take a lot of damage from the double cast aoes.

I think they did one shot you a bit in those dungeons too. Necropurge and meteor drops have that potential, haircut is similar to hashmal's rush but with slightly more forgiving timing and will two shot the player unless the healer is very quick and in range. Usually any hard content in this game is hard because it outright kills you.

[AxlStream]

Snipped

In order...

No, lose conditions means losing the game aka wipe, no Kefka doesn't hurt even at min ilvl and no dungeon mechanic actually one shots.

[Lynde]

In order...

No, lose conditions means losing the game aka wipe, no Kefka doesn't hurt even at min ilvl and no dungeon mechanic actually one shots.

Theres plenty of dungeon mechanics that can 1 shot if not followed to the mark. Granted you might not see some of them because of gear, but some still exist. For example, if you get pushed off the edge by the Demon Wall or get crushed by his book brother are a few examples. Heck, T5 and T9 in coil can and still one shot a player(s) if not followed, even UNSYNCED.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yeah, I'm going to say no. Smooth runs through leveling dungeons is about 50/50, with the exceptionally optimal, and the atrociously awful run are both rare. But all it really takes is one 40+ minute clear time of a leveling dungeon for the devs to say the difficulty is staying right where it's at.

Suffice to say, a player won't learn if they are not punished for failing mechanics, but at the same time, a player also has to have the desire to get better. There will never be a middle ground content if the mindset remains 'Savage/everything else'. 24-man is about as middle as it's going to get.

But I never said leveling dungeons needed to have their difficult increased. In fact, I said the precise opposite. Leveling dungeons are relatively fine as you will actually be punished for mistakes but to a severe degree. It's Expert and beyond that are absolute jokes.

Lose conditions mean failing the mechanic, not losing the fight.

Also, tanks honestly are OP in terms of mitigation. If those swipes hit melee it can get pretty brutal. Kefka normal seems easy, but at lower ilvls and later in the fight the vuln stacks hurt, especially for new players who don't get the grave image things right away. Especially the gaze mechanic, because if i remember right, its from the image not from Kefka. Kind of works out that two or three can mean you die later in the fight, especially if they cause you to take a lot of damage from the double cast aoes.

I think they did one shot you a bit in those dungeons too. Necropurge and meteor drops have that potential, haircut is similar to hashmal's rush but with slightly more forgiving timing and will two shot the player unless the healer is very quick and in range. Usually any hard content in this game is hard because it outright kills you.

How is it a lose condition though if the damage is so insignificant you can get hit multiple times and still not dip below 50% HP? That's the whole crux of this argument. Mechanics with trivial consequences accomplish nothing.

I actually agree, though it isn't just tanks. Healers are equally too strong hence why fights are leaning more notably on OHKO mechanics. A particularly poor design is White Hole/Heartless Archangel in God Kefka. Forcing healers to heal inefficiently through mass overhealing just to ensure everyone is 100% topped. As for the swipes, they only remotely hurt if you're very close to the ilvl. I did Kefka day one and ate people of nonsense yet still managed with little issue. Considering this is brand new content, I shouldn't be able to shrug off vulnerability stacks. If he were a leveling boss, sure. Let people get their feet wet, but he's endgame yet doesn't do enough to cause any real concern unless people are either new or dumb.

All of those mechanics are good examples though. People messed up mechanics and either died or came dangerously close. This encourages players not to fail. Compare that to Expert or normal modes and you begin to see why the playerbase doesn't care.

[Gemina]

But I never said leveling dungeons needed to have their difficult increased. In fact, I said the precise opposite. Leveling dungeons are relatively fine as you will actually be punished for mistakes but to a severe degree. It's Expert and beyond that are absolute jokes.

My mistake. I do apologize for reading it incorrectly.

I've never been caught up enough to do any expert roulette dungeons while they were in that roulette. I've only done them after getting tossed into 50/60 roulette. Are they around typical HM difficulty? If so, I have always found the leveling dungeons to be more difficult since players tend to be at, or below a decent iLv to run the dungeon. What I've noticed about HM dungeons is that they do indeed toss more at you, but it doesn't matter because everyone is so over-geared. If ran at a lower iLv, the same stuff people don't bother to move out of is going to hurt.

I understand where you are coming from though. If a telegraphed attack isn't threatening, or easily mitigated with a healer regen, then there is no reason to avoid it as it disrupts positioning. Even if not using a positional job, players usually have 'comfort zones' and only move if necessary. I really like what they did with some ARR dungeons. The ones that didn't carry a HM tag and also weren't part of the MSQ. Pharos Sirius and The Lost City of Amdapor come to mind. I know these got nerfed, and it never should have happened.

I wish SE would adopt a similar mentality to these older dungeons, and create dungeons that are simply known to be more difficult than the average dungeon. Not crazy punishing, but by the Gods your attention WILL be required to get through it. We already have them, but they are few. We need more. We shouldn't have to rely on random/bad/inebriated players to make things interesting.

[HyoMinPark]

Usually any hard content in this game is hard because it outright kills you.

Honestly, it’s my opinion that mechanics should be more punishing if you fail them in all forms of content. Otherwise you end up with tanks in Kefka normal mode that think it’s okay to get up to 8 vulnerability stacks, and then whine to the healer when they die because they ignored mechanics 8 times and finally got punished for it by eating a tankbuster with 8 vulnerability stacks...but it only took them 8 mistakes for it to finally come back and bite them in the butt.

[kikix12]

Except that for melee...you have to be behind them for one to two thirds of your attacks in order to get the highest potency, which removes any idea of baiting. It actually punishes a smart playstyle by forcing potency losses, especially for monk. So those kind of mechanics can be a double edged sword.

Melee have no cast times (except for one skill of Samurai)...so how is it punishing smart play?! Melee are good at baiting those attack as well. Monk for example have a "side" and a "back" attack at every stance, and attacks that don't even care as well. The cast is about done?! Use the side one. You're out of danger. He's not casting?! Use the back one to bait him and trigger the effects of the skill then go to the side.

Samurai is a bit different. Only the combo finishers are directional, one for back and one for side. That makes it completely irrelevant. All samurai needs to remember is not to "bait" the crocs before going onto the combo that requires him to be at the back.

I don't know about Ninja and Dragoon, but I reckon they have similar means of avoiding the back for a short duration.


It's all about managing the passage of time. They will not use those AoE's constantly. There is always a cooldown, short as it is, that you can stand there without them going at it. Even if you cannot see the "smart play" in that, that doesn't mean there is none.