How I wish Eureka was

[MageBlack]

Let me ask this a different way then: What do you think my design intent is? My goal here isn't to "add complexity" for the sake of complexity, so if you truly believe that, it's because you don't understand the vision (which is fair), which means I failed in conveying my thoughts. So I'd like the opportunity to rectify that.

Neither of these qualify as engaging for a ex/savage quality player IMO.

So, why does Eureka not have ANYTHING in it to engage a stronger player?

Just because the relic has been a mindless long grind previously doesn't mean it can't have other avenues. Ultimate isn't for everyone and isn't the solution to the problem. I don't necessarily need "more challenging" than EX/Savage, what I need is for other content forms to offer a SIMILAR challenge thus increasing the quantity of content for consumption. The framework already exists and supplanting further options into that is the easiest, and most cost effective approach.

The thing is, as you even said yourself, Relic is a long grind and always has been. Because that what this content is, its the casual alternative to Savage content. I get you want to have more savage level content, I support that, but this is not that content. The latter half of Heaven on High will be something closer to what you are looking for I think.

Here's a fictitious scenario: I have 3 hours a week to play and I want to do my relic. You have 15 hours a week to play. As it stands now, you'll finish significantly faster than I would. That's because the content designed is derivative. If there was an alternative method that was harder, but more rewarding I could participate in that (thus enjoying my time more) and still maintain relevancy. You'd be surprised at just how many people would be interested in this. It isn't just me.

The path of least resistance for YOU might not be the same as me. In fact, It's probably a lot easier for me to focus on the harder higher impact content to get done sooner.

The problem is if the harder, higher impact content gets the job done measurably sooner then that becomes the path of least resistance, everyone flocks to it, and eventually renders any other method of doing it near impossible. Like eureka currently is, I don't think the NM train is what was intended by the devs, but here we are. I dont think this is a new concept either, players have been ruining games this way since their inception.

To speak to the 3 hours vs 15 hours, thats why there is savage. I have 15 hours but less skill. I need the gear from Eureka to get me closer to the right ilev to even attempt savage. Whereas you with 3 hours and more skill have been able to tackle savage and get the good gear from that which only make things easier for you. Not only that but as a savage level player you are able to get that much higher tier a whole patch earlier meaning I can t even attempt Savage untill a patch or two later when the Ilev gap gets smaller.

You only gave one example of something you didn't like, which was the Fire weather pattern where the thematic intent is that the heat saps your health away over time. The intent of this weather pattern is ensure healers have it on their mind, as well as offer up the ability to use the magia board to offset this pattern. I.e. (use Fire to reduce the damage and get the "HoT effect" or use Water to shield it). Did you not take into consideration the Magia board or were you strictly envisioning the change in a vacuum (i.e. new weather, with existing magia/monsters)?

Yes, I took that into account, i also mentioned that unless the mechanics you are theorizing become mandatory, no one will bother with them. How many times have you seen a party completely ignore boss mechanics if they were not a real threat or otherwise forced on them. I like that you are trying to involve the magia board and make it more than the simplistic arbitrary feature it currently is, I hope that will come in the next Eureka. And the whole have a HoT to counter a DoT and water shields, IS adding complexity for complexity sake. Are you proposing all this mitigation to be on the onus of the healer or on the individual player? All on the healer, no on will want to do it cause if they dont keep up on it they will be constantly yelled at. All on the individual, you will have healers pissed off that they arent mitigating their damage (get out of the fire!!!).

Your suggestions are neat and admirable but I dont feel you will get the results you are hoping for if it was released to the public. I would be very curious how many times you have run a normal dungeon on the minimum ilev setting? Reason being is I'm betting its 0 times (or once just to see), that feature has been there forever and adds nothing to the player experience because it sits unused. We have enough of this in the game already.

Well ignoring these things on the monsters I designed wouldn't be good. I expect people participating in this content form to be intelligent enough to make good decisions or get on the same page pretty quickly. That's why they're EX/Savage players. If they weren't this method wouldn't be better for them, and they'd shift to the existing methods. Thus working as intended.

You severely overestimate the average player... First, its hard enough to get people to not stand in the AOE's but as soon as you start adding in un-telegraphed moves all hell breaks loose. Just look at how frequent complaints are about people being kicked from a dungeon for missing one move or simply on the perception they are not playing 100%. Look at the Rabernastre raid boss Haschmel, that is also mid core content. Do i really need to spell out how this is going to work in Eureka? Try mitigating all your cool ideas when the boss occasionally popps out of view or you cant even see whats going on because 100 other people are also hammering on it, it would be like trying to heard 100 white cats in a blizzard...

If Eureka was something that was tighter managed, like all the other content, it might be feasible to implement some of these ideas but this is a pipe dream. Yet here we are arguing over a fictitious idea that will never be implemented and you seem offended you arent getting the feedback you wanted on it. Sorry if its not being hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread and people arent fawning over the ideas.

If you bothered to read the OP, you'd have seen that I mentioned that I believe designing content for specifically one subset of player as inefficient/sub-optimal. You're more than welcome to debate my analysis as to whether that's right/wrong and why, but until then do you have any actual input on the content therein? Anything you liked/dislike and why?

If that's truly the case (I'm disappointed), then I'll ask why do you think it's bad to have savage and normal in the same zone? You cite the example of "finding people" or skill segregation, but I don't consider those issues. I consider that a good thing. I don't want to play with AFK people or grind nameless mobs. I don't see anything wrong with that.

The thing is it will only work if they split the instance, like they did with the Normal mode Alex and the Savage Alex, have a completely separate instance with the set of rules you want but I can tell you right now if the rewards for both are exactly the same, no one will do the hard mode, at least not in the number that would make it worthwhile. If you are going to have separate rewards, what would those rewards look like?

As much as I may be knocking on your idea, its because unless the players are properly motivated to do it, they wont. Already rewards in this game are pretty pointless, another couple points in STR is boring and uninspiring. A new design only motivates the people that like the design. Other than that, whats the point of gear for a reward? They could add in a mount, but even if they can add in a reward that generates interest, as soon as people get the reward, they will stop doing it.

Anyway, I think we have both wasted enough of our time discussing this fictitious scenario. While its been fun to kill time, theres nothing more I can really say about it. There are some neat ideas that could be used as boss mechanics for a dungeon but will not work as you envision in the Eureka setting.

[Remedi]

FF12 weathers had them affecting elemental effectiveness, heat waves amplified fire dmg for example.
I do wonder if the new system will be just that, making the effect of elements stronger during certain weather and as such making enemies more dangerous than usual

[RiyahArp]

So - you have absolutely no input whatsoever on ANYthing I designed? None?

If that's truly the case (I'm disappointed), then I'll ask why do you think it's bad to have savage and normal in the same zone? You cite the example of "finding people" or skill segregation, but I don't consider those issues. I consider that a good thing. I don't want to play with AFK people or grind nameless mobs. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Generally the more specific the design, the less likely it will be used because of legal issues. SE generally only uses player designs in very limited ways, like in gear design contests (which are dominated by close to professional grade people anyways.) So building a very specific system generally fails and criticizing it wont help in any real sense. This is why all of the "here's is my design for blue mage" threads tend to be pointless imo; it's nice as a thought exercise, but SE goes their own way.

As for it being bad, it was more that given percentages of people doing it offline, you might not get enough people willing to do savage at all. I mean, its hard enough to get people to farm wraiths, how many people are going to want to go and farm HARD wraiths? You'd run into issues designing content for anything more than 8-man, and then it's just another open world savage, with the added benefit of having to get there and an exp grind.

[Shurrikhan]

The problem is if the harder, higher impact content gets the job done measurably sooner then that becomes the path of least resistance, everyone flocks to it, and eventually renders any other method of doing it near impossible. Like eureka currently is, I don't think the NM train is what was intended by the devs, but here we are. I dont think this is a new concept either, players have been ruining games this way since their inception.

The efficiency gap, where available, has never been so large as to exclude less difficult content types from popularity.

Consider light farming, for instance. Some groups would speedrun Savage raids for maximal efficiency, but they were few and far between compared to those grinding light through less difficult means. The margin of efficiency necessary to actually force into common practice new difficulty levels (especially towards increased difficulty) isn't just the moment it becomes "measurable"; it's far closer to "massively significant". And short of common practice being affected, what should it matter to you? So Savage raiders go do something else to more quickly, though with greater total effort, acquire the gear that has far lesser relative value to them, given their post-prog gear levels. So what? Now let's say those who can farm Extreme primals by week 2 also go that route. So what? At most, the time it takes you to PF a run of the lesser content is faintly, faintly affected, in the realm of starting 20 minutes before or after the relevant peak time that day when the activity is nearly continuous. Only by the time those you would otherwise be partying with are taking the alternative choice will you be affected. And we've yet to see an efficiency bonus so huge that players who normally wouldn't touch upper-end content would feel obliged to attempt content that has been given variation or scaling to allow upper-content runners to be more wholly entertained.

You severely overestimate the average player...

[In response to a quote that specifically says Ex/Savage players...]

????

[MageBlack]

The efficiency gap, where available, has never been so large as to exclude less difficult content types from popularity.

Consider light farming, for instance. Some groups would speedrun Savage raids for maximal efficiency, but they were few and far between compared to those grinding light through less difficult means. The margin of efficiency necessary to actually force into common practice new difficulty levels (especially towards increased difficulty) isn't just the moment it becomes "measurable"; it's far closer to "massively significant". And short of common practice being affected, what should it matter to you? So Savage raiders go do something else to more quickly, though with greater total effort, acquire the gear that has far lesser relative value to them, given their post-prog gear levels. So what? Now let's say those who can farm Extreme primals by week 2 also go that route. So what? At most, the time it takes you to PF a run of the lesser content is faintly, faintly affected, in the realm of starting 20 minutes before or after the relevant peak time that day when the activity is nearly continuous. Only by the time those you would otherwise be partying with are taking the alternative choice will you be affected. And we've yet to see an efficiency bonus so huge that players who normally wouldn't touch upper-end content would feel obliged to attempt content that has been given variation or scaling to allow upper-content runners to be more wholly entertained.



[In response to a quote that specifically says Ex/Savage players...]

????

The thing is it will only work if they split the instance, like they did with the Normal mode Alex and the Savage Alex, have a completely separate instance with the set of rules you want but I can tell you right now if the rewards for both are exactly the same, no one will do the hard mode, at least not in the number that would make it worthwhile. If you are going to have separate rewards, what would those rewards look like?

As much as I may be knocking on your idea, its because unless the players are properly motivated to do it, they wont. Already rewards in this game are pretty pointless, another couple points in STR is boring and uninspiring. A new design only motivates the people that like the design. Other than that, whats the point of gear for a reward? They could add in a mount, but even if they can add in a reward that generates interest, as soon as people get the reward, they will stop doing it.

Anyway, I think we have both wasted enough of our time discussing this fictitious scenario. While its been fun to kill time, theres nothing more I can really say about it. There are some neat ideas that could be used as boss mechanics for a dungeon but will not work as you envision in the Eureka setting.

Regardless of how anyone wishes Eureka was, its not going to drastically change design like this since its already past the concept phase. Best we can hope for is the next Eureka to already have some more involved systems and branching paths designed into them but that's a give in as far as I'm concerned. The next Isle hopefully wont be the same as the first, if it is, then its clear to me the company is creatively bankrupt.

[MilanFrozen]

If it requires thought then majority won't like it. I like it though. Wish this game wasn't so braindead.

[Remedi]

then its clear to me the company is creatively bankrupt.

It is bad though? A certian company has been creatively bankrupt since inception and still pretty popular also a certain game was universally praised while beign essentially nothing new, shouldn't we ask for actually good working content instead of creative one?

[Bahati]

While I don't think Eureka needs to be "harder" for the sake of it, I do wish some sort of content would not be a slightly different version of what we already have. It's not about the difficulty, it's the redundancy. Why are we always killing endless trash to spawn a boss and melt it down? How engaging can this possibly be when we've already had hunts and two different versions of Diadem?

Supposedly people asked for this so I won't say it's useless content. It just seems like so much wasted time and potential (and our money?) on something only a minority of players seem to enjoy.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Sorry OP, I was too busy being snarky to give my input earlier.

I do like the idea of weather effects, however certain things such as the persistent damage over time is not what I had in mind. Now that I mention it, I did comment to a friend how disappointed I was when I ran into a tornado and it didn't do anything. Perhaps just keeping it simple such as elemental weaknesses/strengths are modified in certain weather? For example, if it's raining, water element mobs become stronger and slightly more resistant to lightning? Gales giving mobs a haste buff? It's more challenging and makes you pick your battles more wisely, but it's not so difficult it excludes people of a...certain demographic.

The magia board in general could use some work, as right now it's simple stack 5x in one element and switch as needed. Perhaps some dual aspected enemies might spice that up, I don't know.

lol - I saw.

When you saw the Heatwave effect (HP drain weather pattern) did you think about its applications and counters? It's easily reversible by simply equipping Fire or Water in your Magia board (Fire will reduces its incoming damage as well as provide a HoT effect). Water, provides a persistent shield that eats the damage.

The idea would be that this effect in a vacuum (to players strictly only focusing on NM trains/soloing mobs) would hardly be affected. The effects would only truly be dangerous if you were hunting the dangerous monsters I designed.

The thing is, as you even said yourself, Relic is a long grind and always has been. Because that what this content is, its the casual alternative to Savage content. I get you want to have more savage level content, I support that, but this is not that content. The latter half of Heaven on High will be something closer to what you are looking for I think.

So to be clear - you think it's ok that "casual" players get normal mode alternative to savage, but savage/ex players get no alternative to relic? You recited the same point I already rallied against. I VERY STRONGLY disagree that just because something was X in the past means it cannot be X + Y in the future.

I didn't care for PotD much (and won't if HoH is the same). It's boring content to look at and play through and heavily gated by RNG, not skill. This actually kind of helps support my point though. The development that went towards HoH could easily have been applied to Eureka thus giving savage/ex players something to do in there. They could have then taken the time to ensure HoH had ample content for both "casual" and "hardcore" (I HATE using these words as a measure of skill btw, hence the parenthesis).

The problem is if the harder, higher impact content gets the job done measurably sooner then that becomes the path of least resistance, everyone flocks to it, and eventually renders any other method of doing it near impossible. Like eureka currently is, I don't think the NM train is what was intended by the devs, but here we are. I dont think this is a new concept either, players have been ruining games this way since their inception.

Wait - so you're implying that someone who's never set foot in savage is going to drop the mob chains/FATEs to participate because it's the path of least resistance? You realize that's incredibly inaccurate right?

To speak to the 3 hours vs 15 hours, thats why there is savage. I have 15 hours but less skill. I need the gear from Eureka to get me closer to the right ilev to even attempt savage. Whereas you with 3 hours and more skill have been able to tackle savage and get the good gear from that which only make things easier for you. Not only that but as a savage level player you are able to get that much higher tier a whole patch earlier meaning I can t even attempt Savage untill a patch or two later when the Ilev gap gets smaller.

I asked this to another poster, but they ignored me because it didn't fit their agenda.

Imagine this scenario:

Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage. No more glows, or unique models for Relics. You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests.

Are you ok with this?

Yes, I took that into account, i also mentioned that unless the mechanics you are theorizing become mandatory, no one will bother with them. How many times have you seen a party completely ignore boss mechanics if they were not a real threat or otherwise forced on them.

They are mandatory.

And the whole have a HoT to counter a DoT and water shields, IS adding complexity for complexity sake. Are you proposing all this mitigation to be on the onus of the healer or on the individual player? All on the healer, no on will want to do it cause if they dont keep up on it they will be constantly yelled at. All on the individual, you will have healers pissed off that they arent mitigating their damage (get out of the fire!!!).

Your element is a decision you as a player make depending on the effect you want/need, the mobs element, and the weather. If people aren't intelligently swapping they'll eventually die.

I would be very curious how many times you have run a normal dungeon on the minimum ilev setting? Reason being is I'm betting its 0 times (or once just to see), that feature has been there forever and adds nothing to the player experience because it sits unused. We have enough of this in the game already.

Other than the beginning of each expansion (for instance, I cleared Susano EX in i297 gear and had to cheat the ilvl to enter)? Never. It's a useless thing that offers nothing. However, this has absolutely nothing to do with my concept.

You severely overestimate the average player... First, its hard enough to get people to not stand in the AOE's but as soon as you start adding in un-telegraphed moves all hell breaks loose. Just look at how frequent complaints are about people being kicked from a dungeon for missing one move or simply on the perception they are not playing 100%.

I mean, I've been playing since 2.1 and I've never once seen someone get kicked for missing a single move...Then again, you're still missing the point. It's clear I didn't make this clear.

This piece of content has absolutely no bearing on ANYONE who wants to currently work on mob chains or FATE NM trains. You will still continue to do that.

What will change is that some players will focus on something else that's actually fun to them.

Try mitigating all your cool ideas when the boss occasionally popps out of view or you cant even see whats going on because 100 other people are also hammering on it, it would be like trying to heard 100 white cats in a blizzard...

Not sure if I mentioned it, but the mobs would be only available to fight by the party that spawned them. It wouldn't be zergable.

Yet here we are arguing over a fictitious idea that will never be implemented and you seem offended you arent getting the feedback you wanted on it. Sorry if its not being hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread and people arent fawning over the ideas.

Your feedback was fine until this little bit. I'm not offended at all. I was defending my concept. I'm not perfect, there are obviously ways this could be improved. All I've asked for is for people to quantify WHY they feel the way they do and to go into detail.

The thing is it will only work if they split the instance, like they did with the Normal mode Alex and the Savage Alex, have a completely separate instance with the set of rules you want but I can tell you right now if the rewards for both are exactly the same, no one will do the hard mode, at least not in the number that would make it worthwhile. If you are going to have separate rewards, what would those rewards look like?

Why would the instance need to be split? Why would the rules need to be different? It can easily exist in the same area based on the rules I outlined.

I already kind of outlined the rewards. It would allow me a savage/ex player to participate in content that is more challenging and would allow me to accrue resources more quickly than someone who chose the "easy/mindless" way. It allows me to have MY version of mine while you have yours and we both head to the same goal.

It is bad though? A certian company has been creatively bankrupt since inception and still pretty popular also a certain game was universally praised while beign essentially nothing new, shouldn't we ask for actually good working content instead of creative one?

What company are you referencing as being creatively bankrupt since inception? You referencing FF14 and just trying to not get banned lol?

While I don't think Eureka needs to be "harder" for the sake of it, I do wish some sort of content would not be a slightly different version of what we already have. It's not about the difficulty, it's the redundancy. Why are we always killing endless trash to spawn a boss and melt it down? How engaging can this possibly be when we've already had hunts and two different versions of Diadem?

Supposedly people asked for this so I won't say it's useless content. It just seems like so much wasted time and potential (and our money?) on something only a minority of players seem to enjoy.

Eureka isn't getting harder. It's merely the opening of a new more challenging/engaging avenue. You can still go about it the old way, i.e. mindless zerg/mob chains, of if you like challenging stuff you can try hunting the hard monsters and accrue stuff more quickly (if you're actually killing them).

[Remedi]

Was referring to activision-blizzard, and blizzard games in general, they are hardly ever creative, they were simply good to play.

Just like God of war, it's not creative in any shape or form, it's simply a good game, true it's a new take for the franchise and could be seen as new spin on it, but some might actually not like it for that, nevertheless it is a well crafted game and that's my point, we shouldn't ask for innovation, creativity or such we should ask for GOOD content as in it feels good to play and makes me want to spend my time even if it's just me playing a legend of zelda skin a god of war skin