The premium app is what finally made me unsub.

[Mahrze]

Netflix is a month to month of older content or exclusive to them not an on demand app. Now if you use Amazon as an example it would make more sense. Prime includes some content and some you pay for. This is one of those Sub with in Sub. To get other networks you pay extra with amazon. What is the point of having an Amazon Prime membership then? A subscription, over a subscription, over on demand movies? I'll take $5 over amazons 12.99 membership,9.99 Stars,+ 9.99 showtime + any amount for individual movies any time. The only service I use from my cable company is the internet business line.

Amazon in that condition isn't available in as many markets as it is in the US. I'm viewing it as how the app has the same reach outside of the US (like netflix is at this point global) but I got enough clarity on your perspective. I fold, out of respect.

[Melichoir]

Snip

It matters because there is a drastic difference between a soft disassociated advantage and a hard one.

Heres a thought to consider: The game sells you an item for $100 that is +1 to your primary stat. At lvl 70. Only useable at lvl 70.


Is that a Pay 2 Win Scenario? You are getting a free point in a stat, but what does that pragmatically amount to? In the context of the endgame, Zilch.

Is it pay 2 win if there is a 1% chance of getting an item that has a 1% chance of getting a special item within it, that has a 1% chance within that of having Stats slightly better than raid tier gear?

Context of Pay to Win matters because it depends on what power is being 'bought' and how it is being bought. If it gives you an unjust advantage (and to clarify, a MEANINGFUL advantage) in the context of this game directly through purchase power by the means of stats/access to special content/gear/etc, that is a huge problem. If its "Heres something that may have the potential do to something that could have the potential to do another thing that might translate into an advantage," we're going to have to step back a moment and evaluate where we draw a line.

An example someone brought up was EAs lootboxes and how they tried to weasel out of it being p2w. EA made the claim that its "RNG", and anyone can get lootboxes, therefor its not p2w. Now the issue that they failed to address was two fold: Lootboxes were difficult in of themselves to aquire, making the entry to get them extremely high, and the best weapons were locked within those Lootboxes. Those with deep pockets had a strategic advantage if they mass purchased lootboxes, even if it was RNG based because you could meaningfully game the system for the best gear that the average player had no pragmatic way of acheiving, lest they grinded a substantially high amount of hours.

I bring that up because that example is almost the opposite of the App due to a variety of factors. The app allows you to monitor the MB, make purchases/change prices at a cost of real money. This is, AT THEORY, going to result in increased profits. There is no current evidence that this will result in massive profit gains. It is speculation that it will at its most optimistic scenario. So the app is speculated to give you more money by gaming the market board. Then it goes to teh second factor. Does Gil = Power? Broadly, no it does not. There are certain situations where Gil can help with end game power, but its a pretty selective and minor aspect that already is replicable with in game current mechanics. Meaning, having more gil does not give you a distinctive advantage after a certain point, and the point of that threshold is fairly low. Enough so you can do it with 2 retainers without any real trouble. Finally, Considering IF you make more Gil with teh app, then use that App to buy BiS accessories (as an example), and the fact that such a purchase would then benefit more than just the app user but more of the player base inadvertently, then you have to actually go and clear that content with items most anyone can achieve through reasonable and pragmatic play.

Compare that to EA: Where best gear was directly locked behind an RNG system that heavily favored microtransactions by making it extremely difficult to get into the RNG system, even with proper gameplay.

There is a meaningful advantage to buying Lootboxes from EA, and a not so meaningful off chance advantage from the App. As I mentioned, if its all about those retainers and access per say, the current retainer system is already p2w. So are any items you can gift, which you can arrange for Gil exchanges. So are jump potions. They give you advantages vs other players in some regards. So is any Glamour or Dyes. Afterall, if you buy dyes with cash, youre not expending Gil in game.


But we dont make those points cause people understand there is a 'distance' from actual influence.

So yes, when you say pay 2 win = pay a guaranteed win, yeah that is about right. Its paying for meaningful advantages over the other players in current content. The app does not do this. It has a potential for that based on speculation, but a guarantee of it in any meaningful way. Could it cause market issues? As I keep saying, yes it might. Thats worth discussing. Is it "OMG p2w!"? Again, it is not.

[ManuelBravo]

that is exactly why I canceled. Up front it seems nice but after I seen all those added fees, yikes. Luckily they have good customer service and basically let me try it for free to explore it, so I got charged nothing trying it outbut ya...

Is it not this the model for just about anything though?

Cable companies Sell channel sets,

New cars sell monthly bundles, SXM, onstar, personal minutes, wifi bundles? I mean you pay for the car, it comes included right? ( not to mention dealership maintenance warranties )

Food delivery apps example Door Dash, The company is paying them should not the tip be included already?

Certain applications like Norton or McAfee we but the whole internet protection package, pay an annual fee and now want to charge you extra for ID / VPN services?

Banks offer OD / NSF protection with their account yet will charge you for transaction, they call some Free checking you get transaction fees depending on banks?

Funny how it works does that mean they are a secret organization with different names? No it's a standard business practice. They all have nice customer service and we all agree to their terms, yet in a way no one really knows what they are signing up for.

[Divinemights]

What is each character's daily post limit?
I mean... number of posts.

[Vstarstruck]

Is it not this the model for just about anything though?

Cable companiesSell channel sets,

New cars sell monthly bundles, SXM, onstar, personal minutes, wifi bundles? I mean you pay for the car, it comes included right? ( not to mention dealership maintenance warranties )

Food delivery apps example Door Dash, The company is paying them should not the tip be included already?

Certain applications like Norton or McAfee we but the whole internet protection package, pay an annual fee and now want to charge you extra for ID / VPN services?

Banks offer OD / NSF protection with their account yet will charge you for transaction, they call some Free checking you get transaction fees depending on banks?

Funny how it works does that mean they are a secret organization with different names? No it's a standard business practice. They all have nice customer service and we all agree to their terms, yet in a way no one really knows what they are signing up for.

everything you listed has controversy over that .. or at very least some competition is advertising "less hidden fees" (Very big for cell phones, cable t.v., internet, banks to do), and in fact i was exploring the amzaon prime over cable thing but cable for me was cheaper soo (well idk about door dash or mafee wtf is door dash???)

for cars.. again it depends.. they accept haggling soooooooooooooo

It matters because there is a drastic difference between a soft disassociated advantage and a hard one.

Heres a thought to consider: The game sells you an item for $100 that is +1 to your primary stat. At lvl 70. Only useable at lvl 70.


Is that a Pay 2 Win Scenario? You are getting a free point in a stat, but what does that pragmatically amount to? In the context of the endgame, Zilch.

Is it pay 2 win if there is a 1% chance of getting an item that has a 1% chance of getting a special item within it, that has a 1% chance within that of having Stats slightly better than raid tier gear?

Context of Pay to Win matters because it depends on what power is being 'bought' and how it is being bought. If it gives you an unjust advantage (and to clarify, a MEANINGFUL advantage) in the context of this game directly through purchase power by the means of stats/access to special content/gear/etc, that is a huge problem. If its "Heres something that may have the potential do to something that could have the potential to do another thing that might translate into an advantage," we're going to have to step back a moment and evaluate where we draw a line.

An example someone brought up was EAs lootboxes and how they tried to weasel out of it being p2w. EA made the claim that its "RNG", and anyone can get lootboxes, therefor its not p2w. Now the issue that they failed to address was two fold: Lootboxes were difficult in of themselves to aquire, making the entry to get them extremely high, and the best weapons were locked within those Lootboxes. Those with deep pockets had a strategic advantage if they mass purchased lootboxes, even if it was RNG based because you could meaningfully game the system for the best gear that the average player had no pragmatic way of acheiving, lest they grinded a substantially high amount of hours.

I bring that up because that example is almost the opposite of the App due to a variety of factors. The app allows you to monitor the MB, make purchases/change prices at a cost of real money. This is, AT THEORY, going to result in increased profits. There is no current evidence that this will result in massive profit gains. It is speculation that it will at its most optimistic scenario. So the app is speculated to give you more money by gaming the market board. Then it goes to teh second factor. Does Gil = Power? Broadly, no it does not. There are certain situations where Gil can help with end game power, but its a pretty selective and minor aspect that already is replicable with in game current mechanics. Meaning, having more gil does not give you a distinctive advantage after a certain point, and the point of that threshold is fairly low. Enough so you can do it with 2 retainers without any real trouble. Finally, Considering IF you make more Gil with teh app, then use that App to buy BiS accessories (as an example), and the fact that such a purchase would then benefit more than just the app user but more of the player base inadvertently, then you have to actually go and clear that content with items most anyone can achieve through reasonable and pragmatic play.

Compare that to EA: Where best gear was directly locked behind an RNG system that heavily favored microtransactions by making it extremely difficult to get into the RNG system, even with proper gameplay.

There is a meaningful advantage to buying Lootboxes from EA, and a not so meaningful off chance advantage from the App. As I mentioned, if its all about those retainers and access per say, the current retainer system is already p2w. So are any items you can gift, which you can arrange for Gil exchanges. So are jump potions. They give you advantages vs other players in some regards. So is any Glamour or Dyes. Afterall, if you buy dyes with cash, youre not expending Gil in game.


But we dont make those points cause people understand there is a 'distance' from actual influence.

So yes, when you say pay 2 win = pay a guaranteed win, yeah that is about right. Its paying for meaningful advantages over the other players in current content. The app does not do this. It has a potential for that based on speculation, but a guarantee of it in any meaningful way. Could it cause market issues? As I keep saying, yes it might. Thats worth discussing. Is it "OMG p2w!"? Again, it is not.

Noooooooo... that is just them trying to cover themselves.. You are over complicating it because you are brainwashed by what companies are doing, it is very simple, Pay money for an in game advantage? if so we call that pay to win. OFC EA will do that, as far as I understand ESRB is fighting not to be regulated by government (or trying to defend companies) being regulated by US government trying to throw out BS like that. You SHOULD not be selling POWER( even econ power like this app) in any shape or form is what it boils down to. I strongly disagree with it, it hurts my enjoyment, why you think I pulled my sub for? (on top of the fact I hate the concpt/moral reasons for company being too cash grabby)

[Melichoir]

Snip

Then this ultimately boils down to a difference of opinion. Youre view is any kind of 'advantage' that is paid for by cash is unnacceptable. Depending how you define 'advantage' can mean disqualifying the entire MS, because the items on their store can be an advantage in some fashion. As pointed out, Dyes are an economic advantage, cause you dont have to spend Gil which you can apply to ingame power. So are individual retainer slots. Anything in the store which gives you teh opportunity to not spend time or money is an advantage. That means Fantasias and mounts are also included. So are premium glamours.

They all in some fashion can be considered a direct or indirect power advantage.

Those are terms most players probably dont agree with. Most players have issues with explicit power gained through monetization. That is very direct forms of power gain. Indirect ambiguous forms they typically dont mind because either they dont experience it, or the gain is so minor that only at an extreme would it be noticeable.

You say its any advantage, I say its any meaningful power advantage. Its two different PoV on how you define p2w. So theres not much else to really discuss concerning this point. Ill give you props if you did pull your sub for sticking to your principles. But Im not goign to pull mine because I dont see the app as an issue in its current iteration. If it evolves into something more, then yeah, at that time I may do the same.

[Vstarstruck]

Then this ultimately boils down to a difference of opinion. Youre view is any kind of 'advantage' that is paid for by cash is unnacceptable. Depending how you define 'advantage' can mean disqualifying the entire MS, because the items on their store can be an advantage in some fashion. As pointed out, Dyes are an economic advantage, cause you dont have to spend Gil which you can apply to ingame power. So are individual retainer slots. Anything in the store which gives you teh opportunity to not spend time or money is an advantage. That means Fantasias and mounts are also included. So are premium glamours.

They all in some fashion can be considered a direct or indirect power advantage.

Those are terms most players probably dont agree with. Most players have issues with explicit power gained through monetization. That is very direct forms of power gain. Indirect ambiguous forms they typically dont mind because either they dont experience it, or the gain is so minor that only at an extreme would it be noticeable.

You say its any advantage, I say its any meaningful power advantage. Its two different PoV on how you define p2w. So theres not much else to really discuss concerning this point. Ill give you props if you did pull your sub for sticking to your principles. But Im not goign to pull mine because I dont see the app as an issue in its current iteration. If it evolves into something more, then yeah, at that time I may do the same.

to be fair to you ill state my full view like Momomi:

Yes, but more limited and less worrying forms of it. Once you've leveled up beyond the max level of the item, it stops giving most of its advantage. And once you've reached maxed level, there is no more advantage at all.

I also don't consider the jump potions to be very worrying for the same reasons. That doesn't mean they aren't still forms of pay-to-win, just more limited versions of it.

For the record, though I'm less worried about those, I still disagree with their existence.

I disagree with the dyes, fully. If it was like other games where it was one time use to "learn it" (buy once then its unlimited use) fine. However I hate the current pricing on dyes and the fact they exist. They try to make them very rare in game means (free lootboxes) to provoke people IRL money them from frustrations like any other thing based on microtransactions. Maybe the dyes be fine if WE WERE NOT ON A SUB MODEL!

This is what I hate most about the situation, giving f2P model gated by a sub, SE is being too cash grabby. So basically was momomi said, I worry about them much less, but disagree their existence (under sub model) for dyes.

My discord friends I talk about know someone that spent like 140 USD on dyes... ugh, im sure SE makes lots of money off dyes.

I speak out now because the app is BS and the straw that broke the camel back, no more.

[Oriens]

Mog Station sales funded EU's data center, good for them.

What else has the Mog Station funded that directly affects me as a player in NA?
The recent server relocation away from Canada-- to now which have been the most unstable servers to-date? Nothing was this bad with server disconnects and lag in 2.0 or 3.0. The fact that 4/8 people in my static had to use VPN from the start of these new servers is ridiculous.

[Vstarstruck]

Mog Station sales funded EU's data center, good for them.

What else has the Mog Station funded that directly affects me as a player in NA?
The recent server relocation away from Canada-- to now which have been the most unstable servers to-date? Nothing was this bad with server disconnects and lag in 2.0 or 3.0. The fact that 4/8 people in my static had to use VPN from the start of these new servers is ridiculous.

I think that was from shortsightedness on SE's part on doing research over how badly routing is done in NA. Prob should of did better research on that end.

[Sigma-Astra]

Mog Station sales funded EU's data center, good for them.

What? Since when?