The premium app is what finally made me unsub.

[Divinemights]

It's still option. But as a decent equivalent: What about having netflix giving me the app with extra features for $5 more, besides my already existing subscription?

If the extra feature is let me see the movie right away the moment they are off theater release, sure.
$5 worth it.

[Mahrze]

If the extra feature is let me see the movie right away the moment they are off theater release, sure.
$5 worth it.

You're expecting a deliberate extra feature. I'm pointing out how his message would be much more succinct by putting a more direct equivalent. Expecting your quote would be akin to the FFXIV app lets you do gathering a la april fools joke AND craft via the mobile app.

To which, yes I'd pay $5 if I could do that on the go.

[Melichoir]

Hmm ok.

Some people pointed out that you can make purchases from the MB with Micro Transactions.

With that in mind...

I still dont see an issue because I still dont see this as a pay to win in the context of FFXIV. Someone here has to demonstrate specifically how being able to have more retainers and the ability to buy/sell items on the MB results in a direct 'power' gain.

Let me explain this again:

Pay 2 Win as a concept directly revolves around selling 'power' to individuals that would give htem an undue advantage in completing relevant end game content. What that 'power' is depends ultimately on the context of the game. In the context of MMOs, this usually boils down to gear, stat boosts, disproportionate inventory/banking advantages that would make it otherwise impossible to play teh game in a pragmatic manner, access to paywalled end game dungeons or content, increased drop rates on items, etc. Broadly speaking, things that give you a stat and content advantage over the other players in relevant content. Relevant is key, simply because the Jump Potions are not p2w as they exist to bypass old content and allow newer players to catch up to the current content where they can cut their teeth.

Now, back to the app. How does the app give players a pay to win situation? In what way does having 2 extra retainers and the ability to buy/sell items on the MB remotely give 'power'. Some here have been arguing, essentially, that having the extra retainers and micro trans is p2w cause it will ultimately net a person more Gil. Now, this is a fine argument IF Gil also directly translated into power. It currently does so in a minimum capacity that can be done though the default 2 retainers you have.

Gil cannot buy you BiS gear within the normal contexts of the game, nor can it complete content for you. You cant use Gil to beat UCoB or O8S. Not in the 'normal' sense.

"But what about people selling runs for Gil!!!"

That isnt within the normal frame work of the content and requires people to actually have beaten the content to offer that form of trade to a player. SE doesnt consider that a normal sense of the games mechanics. That is something players decide among themselves. Much like two players can decide among themselves to Sell a player a Fantasia (as a gift) to another player for Gil. It is technically not allowed or within the normal scope of the game, but goodluck trying to manage that. Broadly speaking, as it stands, Gil does not provide you a direct advantage to power. And dont use the "Oh Materia/Foodbuffs/Pots" example because those items are not that expensive and can be attained on two retainers fairly easy. Again, having the advantages the app supposedly provides is moot if you can do it just as easily on two.

"Oh but muh housing!"

Having Gil still doesnt translate into having a house, as there are separate issues regarding that. In fact, combing through threads, the problem wasnt Gil prices, it was availability. People HAD the money, but not the opportunity. Having Gil was broadly not an advantage.

So where is this direct power? And here comes the "Stop with semantics retort" that usually comes up.

This isnt semantics, its talking directly about what is meant by 'Power'. Some people are arguing that Gil is the endgame, and where all the 'power' in FFXIV resides. IF we assume Gil is the end game, we would see a lot less people playing DoW/DoM and more people play DoL/DoH. Because Frankly, playing a Dmg dealer is not a cost effective means of making money. So if end game is Gil, its about Gil Related Purchases, which are mostly Glamour and Housing. Is that our end game? If that is, then any Glamours on the MS are p2w. So are mounts on the MS. If power is the ability to skip content (no matter its relevancy) than Jump potions are p2w and should be expunged. Are peopel who dont give a damn about housing or glamour but Savage not really playing the endgame?

Yeah, IF anything, and Ill concede this, being able to make purchases on the MB may result in skewing the economy on servers negatively. If its 1 nut per purchase (regardless of stack size), you may see a situation where people force stack sizes down to mess with kupo nut people. It is worth discussing how it may impact server economy at large. That would be worht discussing. But the claim of "its p2w", no, Im not personally seeing that because Im not seeing how Gil translates fairly directly into power.

[Deceptus]

Someone here has to demonstrate specifically how being able to have more retainers and the ability to buy/sell items on the MB results in a direct 'power' gain.

Sorry to boil your argument down to one issue but the answer is access.

Those willing to spend more have more access to sellable slots on the MB than those who don't.

They have the potential to make more in game money. It's not a direct pay X get Y gil, but the potential is there. Someone who doesn't pay only has 40 market board slots. Someone who pays $4 a month more gets access to 80 market board slots. They may or may not use them, but that's a fact that can't be disputed.

Anyone serious in market board manipulation is going to want as many slots as they can get.

Gil cannot buy you BiS gear within the normal contexts of the game, nor can it complete content for you. You cant use Gil to beat UCoB or O8S. Not in the 'normal' sense..

It absolutely can. Battle Gear Pentamelded crafted gear is almost universally BiS. That is within the normal context of the game.

Pentamelded Crafted gear is always the best there is and is required for serious end game crafting. Scrip gear doesn't meet the minimums.

[Vrankyl]

Gil cannot buy you BiS gear within the normal contexts of the game, nor can it complete content for you. You cant use Gil to beat UCoB or O8S. Not in the 'normal' sense.

Actually gil can buy you BiS gear. Generally for tanks crafted accessories while pentamelded remain BiS even when compared to accs of a higher ilvl. So someone can use gear to buy BiS tank accessories day one of the patch, and use said gil to buy all the materia they'll need and afford to pentameld it.

[ZilianStoleMyMoney]

You know what I would like 70 of those Quest Item only slots in your bag space to be actual bag space... why the hell there is 105 slots for quest items I dunno lol

[ManuelBravo]

It's still option. But as a decent equivalent: What about having netflix giving me the app with extra features for $5 more, besides my already existing subscription?

Netflix is a month to month of older content or exclusive to them not an on demand app. Now if you use Amazon as an example it would make more sense. Prime includes some content and some you pay for. This is one of those Sub with in Sub. To get other networks you pay extra with amazon. What is the point of having an Amazon Prime membership then? A subscription, over a subscription, over on demand movies? I'll take $5 over amazons 12.99 membership,9.99 Stars,+ 9.99 showtime + any amount for individual movies any time. The only service I use from my cable company is the internet business line.

[Melichoir]

Sorry to boil your argument down to one issue but the answer is access.

Those willing to spend more have more access to sellable slots on the MB than those who don't.

They have the potential to make more in game money. It's not a direct pay X get Y gil, but the potential is there. Someone who doesn't pay only has 40 market board slots. Someone who pays $4 a month more gets access to 80 market board slots. They may or may not use them, but that's a fact that can't be disputed.

Anyone serious in market board manipulation is going to want as many slots as they can get.



It absolutely can. Battle Gear Pentamelded crafted gear is almost universally BiS. That is within the normal context of the game.

Pentamelded Crafted gear is always the best there is and is required for serious end game crafting. Scrip gear doesn't meet the minimums.

People seem to be missing the "within normal contexts" aspect of my point.

Crafted BiS gear is good gear, and is typically slightly better than certain gear, but its usually 1) relegated to Accessory slots, and 2) is not BiS at all tiers (it falls in and out of use, with the exception of Crafters. Ill give concession on that). In the larger context of ALL gear at ALL tiers, crafted Overmeld isnt a norm. It is an ideal that, again, isnt even directly linked. As a point, even IF I had a 100 million gil to spend, I may get shit on RNG and fail to overmeld decently, where as teh guy with 1 million might get all on a go. This is, of course, contingent again on making a profit with extra retainers/MB access. Meaning, even if you have access to the MB and the 2 extra retainers, youre still not guaranteed to make money.

Its an RNG, on and RNG, on a third RNG. There is going to have to be a point that we say "Hey, this is a bit to far removed to be a p2w". Considering the "You get more access, therefor its p2w", you can argue that about how retainers currently work. Put a dollar or two in and "Bam! I have more access! Im the winner!!!!"

Yet pragmatically speaking, having retainers doesnt translate, again, into gil or power. How you use them does, and there are people who can become wealthy without even utilizing more than 2. Does having 8 help? Sure, it can, depending how theyre managed. Is it "I buy 8, Ill be super rich and have the best gear and sucks for you casual plebs!"?

No.

Any cash item that can be exchanged for Gil from teh MS can be considered p2w depending how loose you are with your definitions on what constitutes p2w. Access is p2w if it directly gives you an endgame advantage to current content. Having more access to teh MB board on a transaction basis does not translate into "I get all the gilz EZGG". Having the potential for something to occur (get more Gil) isnt p2w, and then having more Gil doesnt mean you win either.

This, btw, gets more complicated because youre also going to start having to point out how introducing something into a system which benefits more than the initial buyer is inherently bad. What i mean by this is MOST p2w systems only benefit the buyer. Given the example someone posted of "Buy BiS accessories and pentameld them day one of the patch" = power (which is no different than someone who has that gil from doing marketing as it were, using the established system), you then run into a very interesting issue. If a person does that, as an example, that means SOMEONE else is profiting from that transaction (Gil Wise). So not only is the person who is using this system getting the p2w aspect, but auxiliary players who price gouge or spike prices (which can be any and all players) also benefit from it. Are they also benefitting from a p2w system, even though they dont actually pay anything?

You could easily argue that the system their introducing may revitalize the market, in that regards. It could skew it. But that then is a question of market balance, not power. This is my sticking point with P2W argument. People are conflating possible market changes and what it could mean as being the very same thing as buying armor/weapons/special access/easier bossfights. Theyre saying the possibility of something is akin to the very real thing of it. Cause worst case scenario: The App is popular, is used quite frequently (despite peoples claims of p2w) and deflates the concept of p2w as being bad, which in turn allows SE or other companies to justify doing actual p2w strategies. Its "Well you thought this was p2w, and look its not. All these other things wont be either (Proceeds to introduce a queue priority system, special legacy armors and weapons, and other componants which give payers more advantages over everyone else). Dont distill down something like this to p2w when its rng on rng on rng. Problematic to market stability? Sure. P2W? Not really.

[Avatre]

You know what I would like 70 of those Quest Item only slots in your bag space to be actual bag space... why the hell there is 105 slots for quest items I dunno lol

This. I have items from past events(Yokai), and stuff from the HW relic, that I really don't need but I've had no reason to get rid of them as they aren't interfering with anything.

[Vstarstruck]

Netflix is a month to month of older content or exclusive to them not an on demand app. Now if you use Amazon as an example it would make more sense. Prime includes some content and some you pay for. This is one of those Sub with in Sub. To get other networks you pay extra with amazon. What is the point of having an Amazon Prime membership then? A subscription, over a subscription, over on demand movies? I'll take $5 over amazons 12.99 membership,9.99 Stars,+ 9.99 showtime + any amount for individual movies any time. The only service I use from my cable company is the internet business line.

that is exactly why I canceled. Up front it seems nice but after I seen all those added fees, yikes. Luckily they have good customer service and basically let me try it for free to explore it, so I got charged nothing trying it out but ya...

People seem to be missing the "within normal contexts" aspect of my point.

Crafted BiS gear is good gear, and is typically slightly better than certain gear, but its usually 1) relegated to Accessory slots, and 2) is not BiS at all tiers (it falls in and out of use, with the exception of Crafters. Ill give concession on that). In the larger context of ALL gear at ALL tiers, crafted Overmeld isnt a norm. It is an ideal that, again, isnt even directly linked. As a point, even IF I had a 100 million gil to spend, I may get shit on RNG and fail to overmeld decently, where as teh guy with 1 million might get all on a go. This is, of course, contingent again on making a profit with extra retainers/MB access. Meaning, even if you have access to the MB and the 2 extra retainers, youre still not guaranteed to make money.

Its an RNG, on and RNG, on a third RNG. There is going to have to be a point that we say "Hey, this is a bit to far removed to be a p2w". Considering the "You get more access, therefor its p2w", you can argue that about how retainers currently work. Put a dollar or two in and "Bam! I have more access! Im the winner!!!!"

Yet pragmatically speaking, having retainers doesnt translate, again, into gil or power. How you use them does, and there are people who can become wealthy without even utilizing more than 2. Does having 8 help? Sure, it can, depending how theyre managed. Is it "I buy 8, Ill be super rich and have the best gear and sucks for you casual plebs!"?

No.

Any cash item that can be exchanged for Gil from teh MS can be considered p2w depending how loose you are with your definitions on what constitutes p2w. Access is p2w if it directly gives you an endgame advantage to current content. Having more access to teh MB board on a transaction basis does not translate into "I get all the gilz EZGG". Having the potential for something to occur (get more Gil) isnt p2w, and then having more Gil doesnt mean you win either.

This, btw, gets more complicated because youre also going to start having to point out how introducing something into a system which benefits more than the initial buyer is inherently bad. What i mean by this is MOST p2w systems only benefit the buyer. Given the example someone posted of "Buy BiS accessories and pentameld them day one of the patch" = power (which is no different than someone who has that gil from doing marketing as it were, using the established system), you then run into a very interesting issue. If a person does that, as an example, that means SOMEONE else is profiting from that transaction (Gil Wise). So not only is the person who is using this system getting the p2w aspect, but auxiliary players who price gouge or spike prices (which can be any and all players) also benefit from it. Are they also benefitting from a p2w system, even though they dont actually pay anything?

You could easily argue that the system their introducing may revitalize the market, in that regards. It could skew it. But that then is a question of market balance, not power. This is my sticking point with P2W argument. People are conflating possible market changes and what it could mean as being the very same thing as buying armor/weapons/special access/easier bossfights. Theyre saying the possibility of something is akin to the very real thing of it. Cause worst case scenario: The App is popular, is used quite frequently (despite peoples claims of p2w) and deflates the concept of p2w as being bad, which in turn allows SE or other companies to justify doing actual p2w strategies. Its "Well you thought this was p2w, and look its not. All these other things wont be either (Proceeds to introduce a queue priority system, special legacy armors and weapons, and other componants which give payers more advantages over everyone else). Dont distill down something like this to p2w when its rng on rng on rng. Problematic to market stability? Sure. P2W? Not really.

I have issues with this. You are basically saying it is not P2W because there is a chance not to benefit. You can say the same thing with anything you define p2W as well, like you can sell a potion that gives 900000000000000000001 PRIMARY stat boost, but that does not mean they magically solo savage. You are over-complicating what is going on to try to suggest it is not P2W. Paying real money for an advantage? in this case your paying real money for more sell slots, that is an advantage, it is an advantage to have more retainer ventures sent out a once, thus fits the definition of P2W. It is that simple. You do not need analysis on how much of an impact it is to be considered P2W or not.

Also "Problematic to market stability? Sure" only shows it is pay to win, paying real money that effects balance.

The word P2W is more or less an insult rather than an accurate statement. I played Vindictus a good while, they sold straight up end game gear in the payshop (through boxes with a 20%ish chance) And I still was able to tear up their faces if I outclassed them.

(so where does it say pay to win = pay a guaranteed win?)

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

^ exactly what this app does.