Holmgang is way too strong for how short the CD is and needs to be nerfed.

[Saeno]

Hallowed can be used to cheese most debuffs connected with TB, e.g. Susanos slashing debuff, stacks from cleave in O2s, the whole stack mechanic in O7s or in Shinryu the tb debuff.

And just that you can use holmgang every 3 mins, doesnt mean that you do so.... because using holmgang without dying or knockback has no purpose.

So saying something like "in 12 mins you can use 5 holmgangs, but only 2 halloweds" doesnt make much sense. There's a reason why we don't see 4-5 holmgangs (more likely 2-3) in most 9 min ex savage fights.
Same in dungeons... it's most likely 2 hallowed and maaaaybe 3 holmgang.
Because of it's short cooldown you can use it more flexible, but in most fights not really that much more often.


Imo, only LD needs a buff/fix.

In regards to the "Hallowed can be used to cheese most debuffs", the reason why Hallowed can ignore those debuffs is because of the nature of the attack you are taking. The debuff only applies after you have taken 1 or more points of damage from the attack, so if you take 0, you recieve no debuff. My point is, any tank can "cheese", they just need to take 0 damage with shields.

How many holmgang uses you get in a fight depends on how many places you can get them. But you know you can always put them on tank busters for sure. Anytime you take a tank buster, that's a place you can use holmgang so long as it's up. If you choose to take a tank buster with mitigation CD's instead of Holmgang when Holmgang is up, then you only have yourself to blame for low Holmgang uses. The strength of this is that it lets you run most of your CD's on auto attacks while tank busters are met with either one big CD or holmgang. It's extremely powerful to be able to have so many CD's running for auto attacks, but it also creates a dynamic where you will use holmgang-> co-tank immune-> holmgang for most tank busters, creating a tank invul meta. I think this is unhealthy long term because ultimately, all tank damage is a joke since you would just invul it, and most autos you take have large CD's on them, the CD's you would have otherwise put on your tank busters.

Personally, I think this tank invul meta is awesome since it makes my job as a tank much easier. Tank damage is not something I ever worry about anymore, as with auto attacks. This is a boon for healers as well since most if not all healing done is oGCD at higher levels of play. It enables tanks to dish out lots of damage and mitigation as well as healers and short tank invuls is the reason for this. However, long term I don't think it would be very fun to proceed with this kind of playstyle. How exciting would you really be to tank content when you know you can run tank invuls for most damage and heavy CD's for the things you can tank invul? In omega 4 savage, you currently use Holmgang on all Delta attacks and the MT will take double thunder lll's which is a tank swap. You take a complicated, hard hitting tank buster that requires careful voke/shirks from both tanks and heavy magic CD's to "just holmgang it bro". The hardest hitting tank buster this tier, Hyperdrive happens 4 times in clown Kefka and two of them are taken with Holmgang and the other with Hallowed, meaning that out of 4 hard hitting tank busters, only ONE of them is actually mitigated, and when it is mitigated, it is mitigated with Rampart, Sentinel and Sheltron as well as Apoc.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Good design is to both bring down and balance things that are too powerful, and bring up things that are too weak. IMO making living dead 3 mins and Holmgang 5 minutes would be a step towards better balance (of course DRK needs an overhaul as well, but that's another story).

With how powerful Living Dead is in a controlled environment, giving it a shorter C/D would be way too strong. No immunity should have less than a 4minute CD, otherwise as Saeno points out, it simply creates an invulnerability meta where half the threatening tank stuff in the fight is simply ignored due to just how low re-cast timers are on Invulns. Even then I think a 4-minute timer for an invuln would be too gracious.

All Living Dead really needs is a conva effect slapped onto walking dead to help make it easier to use in 4-mans/easier to use with less experienced healers.

[whiskeybravo]

The hardest hitting tank buster this tier, Hyperdrive happens 4 times in clown Kefka and two of them are taken with Holmgang and the other with Hallowed, meaning that out of 4 hard hitting tank busters, only ONE of them is actually mitigated, and when it is mitigated, it is mitigated with Rampart, Sentinel and Sheltron as well as Apoc.

I've tanked all 4 Hyperdrive without much issue, you couldn't do that with ExDeath's Thunder IIIs. So is it the abilities, or the content?

[Saeno]

I've tanked all 4 Hyperdrive without much issue, you couldn't do that with ExDeath's Thunder IIIs. So is it the abilities, or the content?

Every single Thunder lll used by either Exdeath or Neo Exdeath could be taken with a invul so long as you had a WAR. You would always Holmgang the first and third Thunder lll from Exdeath, and you would always Holmgang on Delta attacks.

I think it has a lot more to do with the abilities than the content because for Holmgang to not be up for most hard hitting busters, those busters would need to happen faster than every 90 seconds. (Holmgang is used for the first. 90s later, Living or Hallowed is used, and then 90s later Holmgang is back up).

EDIT: You can also do something like: Holmgang->Hard mitigate +OT utility->Holmgang if the busters happen every 90s or later.

[WhyAmIHere]

With how powerful Living Dead is in a controlled environment, giving it a shorter C/D would be way too strong. No immunity should have less than a 4minute CD, otherwise as Saeno points out, it simply creates an invulnerability meta where half the threatening tank stuff in the fight is simply ignored due to just how low re-cast timers are on Invulns. Even then I think a 4-minute timer for an invuln would be too gracious.

All Living Dead really needs is a conva effect slapped onto walking dead to help make it easier to use in 4-mans/easier to use with less experienced healers.

Or it shouldn't outright kill you. Being punished because another player couldn't keep up is god-awful design.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Or it shouldn't outright kill you. Being punished because another player couldn't keep up is god-awful design.

I'm not denying that. My addition is my opinion on what the current iteration of walking dead needs to be more useable outside of controlled situations, and based on how averse Yoshi-P's team are to re-making skills unless absolutely necessary, probably a more realistic change than trying to come up with & program something entirely new that's not just a copy-paste of HG.

[Launched]

There's this thing called Inner Beast, you know...

As long as the tank meta is to ignore tank stance and do as much DPS as possible, Inner Beast is irrelevant and might as well not exist.

Everything about WAR is ridiculous honestly. Their burst damage, their mitigation, their self healing. Shake it off was the last straw to me, how in the hell did that get past balance checks?

The only thing ridiculour with WAR is the bias against it. Burst is nowhere near as relevant as it was in Alexander because pushing phases to skip mechanics isn't a thing anymore. PLD's mitigation is just as good after the block change. PLD's self healing is by far the best, at the cost of some DPS (but it can even heal other people). Shake it Off is a weaker Divine Veil on a shorter cooldown, meanwhile PLD has Passage of Arms for even more raidwide mitigation when you want it.

In omega 4 savage, you currently use Holmgang on all Delta attacks and the MT will take double thunder lll's which is a tank swap. You take a complicated, hard hitting tank buster that requires careful voke/shirks from both tanks and heavy magic CD's to "just holmgang it bro". The hardest hitting tank buster this tier, Hyperdrive happens 4 times in clown Kefka and two of them are taken with Holmgang and the other with Hallowed, meaning that out of 4 hard hitting tank busters, only ONE of them is actually mitigated, and when it is mitigated, it is mitigated with Rampart, Sentinel and Sheltron as well as Apoc.

Every single Thunder lll used by either Exdeath or Neo Exdeath could be taken with a invul so long as you had a WAR. You would always Holmgang the first and third Thunder lll from Exdeath, and you would always Holmgang on Delta attacks.

Against normal Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could invuln the first two Thunder IIIs and only have to swap on the last. With good DPS you could completely skip the third one and not need to swap. Against Neo Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could Living Dead all 3 Delta Attacks and the PLD could Hallowed two of the Double Attacks, just like a PLD+WAR group would do. Against normal Kefka a PLD+DRK group can invuln 3 of the 4 Hyperdrives just like a PLD+WAR group.

I really don't see how Holmgang specifically is the problem when groups without a WAR can do almost the exact same thing.

[Reynhart]

As long as the tank meta is to ignore tank stance and do as much DPS as possible, Inner Beast is irrelevant and might as well not exist.

You can't say that PLD and DRK's mitigation is more powerful if you decide on your own to ignore the most powerful mitigation skill of WAR.
It's like people saying DRK can't mitigate because they're obsessed with spending all of their MP solely into Dark Arts.

But if we go into that logic...

PLD's self healing is by far the best, at the cost of some DPS (but it can even heal other people).

...as long as the tank meta favors doing as much DPS as possible, Clemency is irrelevant and might as well not exist

[whiskeybravo]

Every single Thunder lll used by either Exdeath or Neo Exdeath could be taken with a invul so long as you had a WAR. You would always Holmgang the first and third Thunder lll from Exdeath, and you would always Holmgang on Delta attacks.

What I meant was Warrior could not take them all without swap. I can take all Hyperdrives without a swap no problem. That's a difference in content design that has nothing to do with abilities.

Or it shouldn't outright kill you. Being punished because another player couldn't keep up is god-awful design.

Exactly. 3 min LD would still be trash. It's not a well thought out ability to begin with.

[Saeno]

As long as the tank meta is to ignore tank stance and do as much DPS as possible, Inner Beast is irrelevant and might as well not exist.

How do you say this and also mention Clemency and Passage of arms as upsides to PLD? Those skills dont do damage, so according to you they may as well not exist.

The only thing ridiculour with WAR is the bias against it. Burst is nowhere near as relevant as it was in Alexander because pushing phases to skip mechanics isn't a thing anymore. PLD's mitigation is just as good after the block change. PLD's self healing is by far the best, at the cost of some DPS (but it can even heal other people). Shake it Off is a weaker Divine Veil on a shorter cooldown, meanwhile PLD has Passage of Arms for even more raidwide mitigation when you want it.

Warrior now and always has been an insanely powerful job since 2.1. The fact that people have been asking for other tanks to be buffed for over 4 years to be on the same level as WAR should say just how powerful WAR has been. There isn't bias towards WAR as much as it is people being tired of everyone always asking other tanks to be buffed. it's been the same song and dance for a very, very long time.

Against normal Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could invuln the first two Thunder IIIs and only have to swap on the last. With good DPS you could completely skip the third one and not need to swap. Against Neo Exdeath a PLD+DRK group could Living Dead all 3 Delta Attacks and the PLD could Hallowed two of the Double Attacks, just like a PLD+WAR group would do. Against normal Kefka a PLD+DRK group can invuln 3 of the 4 Hyperdrives just like a PLD+WAR group.

I really don't see how Holmgang specifically is the problem when groups without a WAR can do almost the exact same thing.

Firstly, "almost exact" and exact are two completely different things. And while the PLD+DRK comp can cheese Dual cast thunder in Neo Exdeath and Hyperdrives in clown Kefka with the similar efficiency, that doesn't mean you're better off without Holmgang. For example, you cannot Living dead both of the final Ultimate Embraces in God Kefka. You CAN however Holmgang the two last Ultimate Embraces. I also want to make it clear that Living Dead should be a little bit longer on the recast but obviously it needs to be heavily changed for that, in that the full HP requirement would need to be more or less abolished or nerfed heavily. Living Dead even at 5 minutes still doesn't do the insane amount of work that Holmgang does since Holmgang is still used more often and has little to no downsides.