Holmgang is way too strong for how short the CD is and needs to be nerfed.

[Neophyte]

Hallowed can be used to cheese most debuffs connected with TB, e.g. Susanos slashing debuff, stacks from cleave in O2s, the whole stack mechanic in O7s or in Shinryu the tb debuff.

And just that you can use holmgang every 3 mins, doesnt mean that you do so.... because using holmgang without dying or knockback has no purpose.
So saying something like "in 12 mins you can use 5 holmgangs, but only 2 halloweds" doesnt make much sense. There's a reason why we don't see 4-5 holmgangs (more likely 2-3) in most 9 min ex savage fights.
Same in dungeons... it's most likely 2 hallowed and maaaaybe 3 holmgang.
Because of it's short cooldown you can use it more flexible, but in most fights not really that much more often.


Imo, only LD needs a buff/fix.

[shao32]

Sure, let's lock dark mind behind Grit with same logic. Lol

with the same logic DRK sould have a 120 CD on shadow wall + a effect and longer duration, grit offGDC with no mp cost and a extra CD that can empower a party shield we dont have and our self heals from souleater need to be unlock from grit, but this is not a threat about what DRK needs, we have already some of those and we are go to recive hopefully a lot of chages on all of those.
Dark mind is only comparable to raw intuition with the diference Dark mind is useless against physical compared to raw that can feed shake it off and being extra magic mitigation.

but this is a threat about how holmgang is so strong in terms of being aviable so much, in heavensward you still have foresight so yeah it make sense due you only have vengeance as a primary mitigation tool on optimal gameplay, but now you have rampart with is shorted recast and better overall mitigation on both type of damage vs foresight physical armor boost, there is no sense WAR have the same mitigation tools as the other 2 with unfairly short colddowns compared to he brothers, with the current kit holmang is pretty OP.

[Cabalabob]

I always said the WAR 2.1 buffs were too excessive. But holmgang wasn’t the major issue for me. Vengeance was. 2 min cd for 30% mitigation AND counter attacks? It’s absurdly strong.

Also another downside to holmgang you didn’t mention is the 6 second duration. While PLDs hallowed can eat 10 seconds of damage from the moment it’s popped and living dead can eat a potential 9~ seconds of damage from the moment it triggers, holmgang only eats 6 seconds from the moment it’s popped. That’s enough to eat a tank buster and maybe an auto attack if you timed it well, while the other two are able to mitigate several hits after the buster.

[shao32]

Also another downside to holmgang you didn’t mention is the 6 second duration. While PLDs hallowed can eat 10 seconds of damage from the moment it’s popped and living dead can eat a potential 9~ seconds of damage from the moment it triggers, holmgang only eats 6 seconds from the moment it’s popped. That’s enough to eat a tank buster and maybe an auto attack if you timed it well, while the other two are able to mitigate several hits after the buster.

only hallowed mitigate the hits but thats not the thing, for each hallowed a PLD use WAR use 2 holmgang and have half of the recast ready with means 12 seconds of being unkillable against 10 seconds of invincible.
figths are around betwen 8-14 min length making PLD being complety unable to fit more that 1 hallowed in most fights vs the 2-4 holmgans a WAR can fit in easily, so we go in to the paper against reality with in reality the oportunity/cost of holmgang its complety superior to hallowed.

vs living dead the skill dont really have a lenght of 10 seconds, many will say 10 seconds for use it and other 10 to being inmortal thats are 20 sec!!!, please no, controled uses of living dead and ¡¡oh shit!! moments make the previous 10 seconds mean nothing in reality, its the same as someone use holmgang or hallowed, specially in planned uses of this skills no tank will be healed if they go to use one of this in a incoming mechanic, and !!oh shit!! moments are that, !!oh shit!!living dead and i eat whatever is going to kill me if the animation let you.
living dead life use is when it pops and then is a healing check, keep walkind dead up just for eat 1-2 AA tend to be more annoying that just top it and let the regens do they job, keep it its only good when multiple TB or TB follow with a aoe, but those are rare and still pretty annoying bcs thend to be tie to positioning mechanics or other stuff.
we are agreed living dead need a change so depending if devs do something this patch or not we can compared, but current living vs holmgang clear winner is holmgang, better uptime use, less healers effort required, holmgang only weaknes is being unable to face mechanics that dont have a target with are pretty pretty rare but for TB healers are to powerful they can raise you HP in a moment, more with convalescence with are 120 recast so it can be up for every holmgang so the value as a TB skill is insane and pretty broken.

[Reynhart]

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

There's this thing called Inner Beast, you know...

[Luin]

Holmgang....never really had a need for it unless it's in PvP or front line otherwise it's pretty much useless if you know how to tank with a WAR properly The whole binding is over rated and only real draw back is if your stuck in a mayor aoe or conal attack that can be avoided. .

you are kidding right?

if you never had a need for holmgang then you obviously never touched savage, bc even o1 and o5 had countless chances to constantly abuse it. In Sigma especially it's the strongest cooldown.

There's this thing called Inner Beast, you know...

ikr it's like they think beastgauge=fell cleave

outside of IR FC isn't much more dmg than IB . against like flatten you need IB. imo its fight design, war has too many cd so they dont even need IB in most levelcap content since HG and proper rotation keeps everything available anyway, without even needing to touch defiance.

[whiskeybravo]

Excuse me? Where was DRK mentioned? Holmgang is way too powerful on its own, it has nothing to do with the other tanks and everything to do with how stupidly strong strong move is. Holmgang could be swapped to any other tank and it would not make it any less broken. Yet despite how strong the move is, it is on the tank that has the most amount of cooldowns and the shortest recast CD's. Holmgang absolutely does not need to be on a 3 minute CD when that is the same CD as Sentinel and Shadow wall. it doesn't help that Vengeance blows Sentinel and Shadow wall out of the water already. And yes, that is taking into consideration Blackest night and Sheltron. Lets not ignore the fact that TBN and Intervention can be used on the WAR.

But as expected, that's what it turned in to. "Holmgang is too strong" obviously implies a comparison to DRK/PLD's mitigation kit. Holmgang is neither weaker nor stronger than it's ever been. In actuality what's changed is the rest of War's kit, along with the other tanks, and as such War now has so many options that it simply makes the other tanks seem inferior.

But, instead of encouraging SE to bring the other tanks up to level at which War functions, you'd rather just have them bash it with the nerf bat so we can all be miserable together. Misery loves company.

(food for thought, Shield swipe offers 2x-3x more raw damage throughout a fight than Vengeance)

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Everything about WAR is ridiculous honestly. Their burst damage, their mitigation, their self healing. Shake it off was the last straw to me, how in the hell did that get past balance checks?

[silverlunarfox]

Everything about WAR is ridiculous honestly. Their burst damage, their mitigation, their self healing. Shake it off was the last straw to me, how in the hell did that past balance checks?

It went from the worst ability to the omg no one dies ability.

I can't knock it, im a WAR main and I love having a party mitigation ability.

To OP. Stop it. Please.

Other things need nerfs on WAR and holmgang is on the bottom of the list. Even I can see WAR is a tad OP. (I mean, I love it, but even I can admit its slightly too much)

[Lambdafish]

But, instead of encouraging SE to bring the other tanks up to level at which War functions, you'd rather just have them bash it with the nerf bat so we can all be miserable together. Misery loves company.

That is how good design generally works yes. If WAR is too strong and the solution is to bring the other tanks up then all tanks are too good against bosses, then bosses have to be scaled up then DPS and healers are too weak and.... that is called power creep, and we don't want that.

Good design is to both bring down and balance things that are too powerful, and bring up things that are too weak. IMO making living dead 3 mins and Holmgang 5 minutes would be a step towards better balance (of course DRK needs an overhaul as well, but that's another story).

People seem to be disregarding the usefulness of the 3min cooldown, I seem to distinctly remember Neo Exdeath requiring a tank swap if you were DRK/PLD but the tankbusters could be entirely handled by WAR on its own. Sure, we would have this problem but with DRK instead if LD was 3mins, but LD requires a lot more healing (usually a benediction or equivilent), which is a higher tradeoff than WAR has (since WARs self healing is also far better than DRKs)