The fact DRK hasn't been fixed in 10 months is disgraceful.

[Hierro]

my conclusion was that dark knight is taking damage at nearly the same rate in a random sample of data

Then at the very least we can say this study debunks this myth of DRK's "lacking" mitigation. In either case, we know DRK's dps isn't far behind PLD. We are to apply our statements to the general public, and to that extent this data does a great job. Consider that the general public does not even do savage content to begin with. Even within that random sample, utility is a non-factor. With that in mind, does the statement "DRK is fine" not hold water in a general sense?

Isn't this just a bit hypocritical, you think?

I'm not the one littering the forum with nonsense of fear mongering. All I'm trying to do is get people to play a class without fear.

[Chrono_Rising]

Then at the very least we can say this study debunks this myth of DRK's "lacking" mitigation. In either case, we know DRK's dps isn't far behind PLD. We are to apply our statements to the general public, and to that extent this data does a great job. Consider that the general public does not even do savage content to begin with. Even within that random sample, utility is a non-factor. With that in mind, does the statement "DRK is fine" not hold water in a general sense?

You can say I would agree with dark is fine in the sense of mitigation. I would not agree with the statement dark is fine in a general sense. The comment I responded to lacks the context that makes my position clear.

[Hierro]

snip

But it also appears you agree with the sentiment that there is a need for players to account for their own skill.

We know using a DRK isn't causing healers to work harder, because the study also shows that neither DV nor SiO affected healing done. Now, if SiO is WAR's only real party utility, and if it's not making a difference, then it could be concluded DRK lacking such a tool does not hamper it much.

We can see its damage trails behind the other tanks, but it's not something to write home about. That it's behind WAR is a given, but so is PLD. But how much is the difference between PLD and DRK? It's practically non-existent.

So, if it's fine in mitigation, and the damage is on par with pld, and if utility doesn't seem to be affecting parties, how is that not fine?

[shao32]

snip

i read that study today but i dint get if this include physical too, i guess the answer is yes due the final asumition DRK is "fine" on mitigation, it would be nice have a part to explain how to archive that mitigation to compare my self for some improving if i can too, but in the end is the same, meaby we are fine in raw numbers on mitigation at least but the problem is how we get those numbers at the end and is not pretty.

even that i was really surprised there exist logs with players dont using rampart or TBN, i mean how they even survive? pray for the poor healers who dealt with that.

[Chrono_Rising]

But it also appears you agree with the sentiment that there is a need for players to account for their own skill.

We know using a DRK isn't causing healers to work harder, because the study also shows that neither DV nor SiO affected healing done. Now, if SiO is WAR's only real party utility, and if it's not making a difference, then it could be concluded DRK lacking such a tool does not hamper it much.

We can see its damage trails behind the other tanks, but it's not something to write home about. That it's behind WAR is a given, but so is PLD. But how much is the difference between PLD and DRK? It's practically non-existent.

So, if it's fine in mitigation, and the damage is on par with pld, and if utility doesn't seem to be affecting parties, how is that not fine?

Again, I feel the need to point out that though yes the primary findings were that skills are only useful when effectively used, that does not mean that they do no have uses that can be exploited by better using cooldowns.

You cannot make this argument:

Dark Knights just need to hone their skills and push their buttons more effectively and they are equal.

SiO and DV are not being used effectively, they are useless.

We cannot have that argument in both directions just because we want it to so it supports our conclusion.

[Chrono_Rising]

i read that study today but i dint get if this include physical too, i guess the answer is yes due the final asumition DRK is "fine" on mitigation, it would be nice have a part to explain how to archive that mitigation to compare my self for some improving if i can too, but in the end is the same, meaby we are fine in raw numbers on mitigation at least but the problem is how we get those numbers at the end and is not pretty.

even that i was really surprised there exist logs with players dont using rampart or TBN, i mean how they even survive? pray for the poor healers who dealt with that.

We need to use TBN more, in particular on raidwide aoes and tank busters make dark knights take the same amount of damage overall.

[Hierro]

snip

I want to reaffirm that I don't believe could be DRK equal to others, no matter the skill. I'm not going to cross my arms in denial infront of raw numbers that state DRK is in third place. What I AM saying is that if people press their buttons and hone their skills, they'll still be in third place, but it won't feel like the tank brings nothing to the table. There is a pervasive mentality around here that DRK holds a party back, but that's so far from the truth.

Can DRK use more love? Certainly, why not. The soft-spoken response from the dev team has been absolutely appropriate considering that the "short-comings" are soft-spoken themselves. Certainly, it's nothing that the general populace should worry about.

[WhyAmIHere]

I'd recommend offering suggestions for the job, and saving your complaints for when the changes actually roll out.

...did you not see the title of this thread? nor how long the DRK feedback thread is?
people have been, and still are making complaints / providing input on the class. it was only just recently that any of this was addressed by a SE person.
Add into that the fact that other jobs, not just tanks, have had adjustments made, some multiple, since the release of SB.
First let's see some changes ACTUALLY roll out. Enough of this "we're working on it, please look forward to it!" This is so unlike the mindset of a typical japanese company.

[Tint]

it's not just the mitigation...

DRK has the most useless abilities of all tanks, while also having the least abilities. shake it off was fixed pretty fast, but what is with sole survivor, blood price, dark passenger, dark side? living dead is also a questionable skill. it's not a bad skill per se, but puts a burden on the healers wich the other tanks don't. and with random people this skill is like non existant, because you will likely die anyway...

why got PLD a long needed aoe attack at lvl 46, while at the same time unleashed was nerfed so DRK has to wait until lvl 56 and can't properly aoe in lvl 50 content?

DRK has the worst enmity generation. he has to sacrifice 140 potency to buff the enmity combo so it does equal enmity generation to PLD and WAR. he has no off-gcd enmity modifier and he loses the most dps of all tanks when using the enmity combo.

forced double weaving on DRK, or even triple with dark arts + carve and spit + a defense cooldown.

plunge has less range than any other gap closer. usually knockbacks push you out of range of plunge. DRK has no knockback prevention and can't even use his gap closer properly to make out for that.

DRK has the worst self heal / self sustain in boss fights, the lowest dps and worst utility of all tanks. okay one tank has to be the one with the weakest dps. but being the weakest in everything?

the band aid fix on quietus (the mana gain wasn't part of the ability on 4.0 release) made DRK extremely clunky and complicated to play in big pulls. shifting blood and mana back and forth to bring TBN and abyssal drains self heal to work is the opposite of the 4.0 goal - wich was making the jobs easier to play.

also changing the lvl of delirium and blood spiller would be nice too, because you can't make much use out of the blood gauge before you learn blood spiller at 68... quietus is nice, but too situational. fell cleave is the first (new) skill WAR learns for his dps-gauge too!

[shao32]

We need to use TBN more, in particular on raidwide aoes and tank busters make dark knights take the same amount of damage overall.

then is nothing i dont doing right now, well thats good, but still we are slightly weaker at physical something that the other 2 dont have problem so i will no claim we are complety fine on mitigation apart of lack of any pasive mitigation.