Idea to fix controversy about healer dps.

[KisaiTenshi]

The problem people have is healers who stand or jump around and do nothing during pulls because the tank isn't even taking enough damage to heal anything. I've seen this often enough that it boggles my mind. Here is one example of many:

Just recently I ended up in a Expert dungeon with a Diurnal AST who would use Asp. Benefic regen on the tank, then Asp. Helios regen, then would stand there doing nothing for the next minute while the rest of the party killed all the enemies. She had some i360 gear (Byakko Weapon too) and it was obvious healer was her main and we received no new player bonus notification.

We are on the same server, and the same data center, and I don't see this anywhere near as often as the forum would suggest. I've seen far more AST's overwriting the Scholar's shields every 5 seconds in a trial or raid than I've ever seen this.

As per usual, you're speaking of things you do not understand.

If you can not add anything productive to the conversation, kindly butt out.

I DPS on healer all the time and I've never been harassed by anyone else in my DF parties to "stop dpsing". I would think that is a rare thing, unless it happens to healers where people are dying due to said healer focusing too much on DPS and not healing.

I've never specifically seen it as Healer, so I do wonder if all the noise is from people wanting to be trolls on the forum. Rather what I've seen are tanks that are new to the duty try to pull everything and not get half way. That has been happening ever since SB launched.

[Miste]

We are on the same server, and the same data center, and I don't see this anywhere near as often as the forum would suggest. I've seen far more AST's overwriting the Scholar's shields every 5 seconds in a trial or raid than I've ever seen this.

How often do you do Experts on a job other than a healer though? If you are queuing as healer then it isn't possible to come across other healers in 4 man content.

For trials and raids then even if you queue as healer you'll see other healers since it is 8 man content, so that makes sense.

If you can not add anything productive to the conversation, kindly butt out.

Bourne is correct about the mechanics of tank self-heals and dps self-heals and healer dps synergy. It all contributes to higher rDPS for roles to use their utility in specific situations.

A good PLD for example will never out AoE DPS a good WHM in a large pull. Holy is just too powerful. So a PLD using Clemency so that the WHM can do another Holy instead of having to stop to heal the tank actually increases the overall damage.

I've never specifically seen it as Healer, so I do wonder if all the noise is from people wanting to be trolls on the forum. Rather what I've seen are tanks that are new to the duty try to pull everything and not get half way. That has been happening ever since SB launched.

If a tank dies within a few seconds it is a failure on the tank's part. As for large pulls it is best when queuing as healer to just be as ready as possible for it if there is no communication in chat. Just prepare for the first pull to be big and try your best to not let the tank die.

[Llus]

If a tank dies within a few seconds it is a failure on the tank's part. As for large pulls it is best when queuing as healer to just be as ready as possible for it if there is no communication in chat. Just prepare for the first pull to be big and try your best to not let the tank die.

I wouldn't necessarily pin that on the tank. I would generally agree that most of the time it's going to be the tanks fault if they sprinted off w/o the healer, no protect up, no cds used aaaaand wipe. (This is the most common reason a tank would die within the first few seconds of a pull.) Beyond that, if the tank is using cds; has given the healer time to get protect up (pet and aetherflow too with sch), the next most common reasons a tank dies in the first few seconds of a pull are:

Tank has really low gear for the content.
Healer has really low gear for the content.
Tank has never handled a large pull/the specific pull with either of the above.
Healer has never handled a large pull/the specific pull with either of the above.
Tank just don't give a f.
Healer just don't give a f.
Tank is incompetent.
Healer is incompetent.

[Miste]

I wouldn't necessarily pin that on the tank.

Well we have to agree to disagree.

As a healer main if a tank dies in 2 seconds which is less than one GCD that uh...isn't a healing problem.

Tank may have been unaware he would die that fast, but in the end tank obviously made a mistake and to be fair the only time I've seen tanks die in 2 seconds is when they used no cooldowns which is not a healer problem.

You have some interesting standards to expect a healer to be able to save a tank who dies in 2 seconds...I mean again as a reminder our GCD in this game is 2.5 seconds.

Such high expectations leads to disappointment.

[KisaiTenshi]

How often do you do Experts on a job other than a healer though? If you are queuing as healer then it isn't possible to come across other healers in 4 man content.

I've played all the level 70 content on Paladin at some point except for the ones that require >320 ilevel as I was focusing on gearing up WHM. I haven't seen this on the regular duties, and quite honestly I would not berate someone for doing so on the level 70 duties if they were not confident enough.

I wouldn't necessarily pin that on the tank. I would generally agree that most of the time it's going to be the tanks fault if they sprinted off w/o the healer, no protect up, no cds used aaaaand wipe.

It's always the tanks fault if the healer is healing. If you can enter the dungeon, you can do the dungeon. That doesn't mean you can do the dungeon as fast as possible.

[Gemina]

How does a healing-only playstyle benefit the player? I don't see any benefit to it. There are certainly times when you have to pump out some HPS but if you're only healing you're only prolonging the encounter you're in.

It benefits the heals-only playstyle because they don't want to DPS. You seem to be mistaken, and believe that the heals-only healer cares about quick clears. They don't, otherwise they'd be contributing to the group's overall DPS. A clear is a clear, whether it takes 15 minutes, or 30.

In terms of not giving much of a reward that depends on context.

In EX primals and Savage (anything with an enrage really) your benefit is a quicker clear and not dying to enrage.

In content without an enrage you get a quicker clear.

A clear is everyone's objective for entering an instance. Both a DPSing healer and a heals-only healer will get this reward. You can bring up EX/Savage (enrage timers), but heals-only healers get clears here too. You do know that healers cannot be condemned for the group not beating an enrage timer, correct? Sure it still happens, and normally comes from the player who hinders their own DPS rotation by failing mechanics and dying. This player, is very quick to blame a healer if they are DPSing.

I will acquiesce that there are situations in which your dps as a healer can feel more like a drop in the bucket. There is a BLM in my FC who is absolutely amazing and the few times I've done dungeons with him I have certainly felt like my dps doesn't matter as much.

I will name one of those situations: When the devs do their testing before releasing content. The whole 'healer DPS isn't factored into clears' thing. Don't get me wrong. I never said healers not DPSing isn't a problem. It just doesn't lead to anything game breaking if they chose not to do it, nor is it as big of an issue as everyone makes it. I specifically stated that the problem is the design of content (and to a further extent, the way healers are designed), and the attitudes of the playerbase.

Both Tanks and DPS jobs are designed in a way that they always have to be pushing something. This is not the case for healers. However, healers are the only ones tasked with keeping everyone alive. It is impossible with the way the game is designed for healers to not have downtime. What they choose to do with this downtime is where the meta and players attitudes come in. The faulty attitudes comes from those adamant about scorning healers for not DPSing, and the healers who outright refuse to add offensive skills to combat.

That said, nothing makes me feel more worthless as a healer than when my group still clears a boss with over 50% HP and I'm lying on the floor. It's like, "Why am I even here?" Again, bad design. This should not even be possible if SE wants healers to be healers.

It becomes a question of competence. Outside of AoE burst any tank or DPS playing at a competent level will utterly destroy my dps numbers on WHM. Even though I feel like I do upper-end dungeon dps on WHM I just don't have the toolkit for single-target or sustained AoE like they do.

Of course not. You're a healer. It is not good design for healers to be able to keep everyone alive whilst putting up comparable numbers to actual DPS jobs. Healers in this game are already quite powerful enough as it is.

How about when you are the only competent person in your instance, though? Dps not doing anything resembling a proper rotation, tank perpetually in tank stance generating unecessary aggro... these are the times when I end a dungeon at 30% or more of the group dps. When you consider how slow these runs are despite my dps (20-25 mins with no wipes) tacking on another 30% has you doing 40 mins in Kugane Castle.

Why is that not seen as a detriment?

My thoughts exactly. But you're raising a different issue than healer DPS or lack of it. This situation is a faulty group, not a faulty healer. I've carried clears before. They're not rewarding. In fact, I usually feel like crap afterwards thinking it was all my fault even though in the back of my head I know I was contributing 110% to that group, and likely still got scolded because I was DPSing. Do you feel this is rewarding?

At both the highest and lowest ends of content healer dps is literally nothing but beneficial and costs the party (and healer) nothing to contribute. The potential gain over time can be huge and there is simply no logical reason to deny your party this aid. To say it isn't detrimental to play a heal-only healer is like saying it isn't detrimental to not do your homework in school - you probably aren't going to fail because of it but it can only help you grow, learn and perform better.

Healer DPS is only beneficial if they can reliably do it and still take care of the party. If they cannot, then it hurts the party. There is no disputing this. Your primary role and the reason why you are brought into content is to heal, and if you're not doing it you will be kicked far more swiftly than not DPSing. However, there is also no disputing that competent healer DPS benefits everyone, but I already made that point in my OP.

[Tridus]

I will name one of those situations: When the devs do their testing before releasing content. The whole 'healer DPS isn't factored into clears' thing. Don't get me wrong. I never said healers not DPSing isn't a problem. It just doesn't lead to anything game breaking if they chose not to do it, nor is it as big of an issue as everyone makes it. I specifically stated that the problem is the design of content (and to a further extent, the way healers are designed), and the attitudes of the playerbase.

YoshiP said that was only the case if everyone is already fully geared. If not (ie: when Savage tiers first come out), the DPSers have less gear than the devs test with and healer DPS is mandatory to make up the difference.

So yeah, it literally makes the difference between clearing and not clearing in that case. Fairly important difference.

Both Tanks and DPS jobs are designed in a way that they always have to be pushing something.

No they're not. Tanks can easily sit idle for long periods and hold enmity if they want to. One of the workarounds for the level disparity XP penalty in Eureka relies on it (the flash only PLD tank).

The difference is not in the roles. The difference is in the community. The tank community doesn't think standing around doing nothing is acceptable. For some reason, a subset of the healer community does. That's the core of the 3000 pages of this endless argument.

If you can tell me why it's okay for a healer to stand around doing nothing and not okay for any other role to do so, then the whole thing would end. Nobody's been able to do that... because it's indefensible.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If you can not add anything productive to the conversation, kindly butt out.

What about my post wasn't productive? If you do not want someone pointing out your misinformation, do research prior to making a definitive statement.

I've never specifically seen it as Healer, so I do wonder if all the noise is from people wanting to be trolls on the forum. Rather what I've seen are tanks that are new to the duty try to pull everything and not get half way. That has been happening ever since SB launched.

If a tank pulls the room and dies immediately despite heals, that is on them. Likewise, if they aren't using proper CDs to handle such a pull, it's on them. Everyone advocating for healers to DPS have said precisely the same. And while you may not see healers standing around borderline AFK, I have seen plenty.

No they're not. Tanks can easily sit idle for long periods and hold enmity if they want to. One of the workarounds for the level disparity XP penalty in Eureka relies on it (the flash only PLD tank).

The difference is not in the roles. The difference is in the community. The tank community doesn't think standing around doing nothing is acceptable. For some reason, a subset of the healer community does. That's the core of the 3000 pages of this endless argument.

If you can tell me why it's okay for a healer to stand around doing nothing and not okay for any other role to do so, then the whole thing would end. Nobody's been able to do that... because it's indefensible.

An addendum to this. If we take intentional design purely at face value, then provided a dungeon is cleared with the 90 minute time limit, we're doing it "as intended." You will never see anyone advocate that stance. So falling back on "Well, Yoshida said!" borders on cherry picking.

[MoroMurasaki]

It benefits the heals-only playstyle because they don't want to DPS. You seem to be mistaken, and believe that the heals-only healer cares about quick clears. They don't, otherwise they'd be contributing to the group's overall DPS. A clear is a clear, whether it takes 15 minutes, or 30.

I don't see the benefit here. Playing how you want isn't a benefit of playing how you want. Not dpsing as a healer because you don't want to isn't a benefit of not dpsing as a healer.

Perfectly fine if they don't care about a quick clear and that's why they aren't dpsing but then they don't have a foot to stand on if they're kicked for this as they are epitomizing the 'differing playstyles' situation. A clear may be a clear but for people with limited time (or anyone queueing as a solo dps) more time spent in a dungeon equates to less actual progress towards exp/tomestone goals. This is a detriment to the party. Just because heal-only healers don't see it this way doesn't make it not objectively true.

A clear is everyone's objective for entering an instance. Both a DPSing healer and a heals-only healer will get this reward. You can bring up EX/Savage (enrage timers), but heals-only healers get clears here too. You do know that healers cannot be condemned for the group not beating an enrage timer, correct? Sure it still happens, and normally comes from the player who hinders their own DPS rotation by failing mechanics and dying. This player, is very quick to blame a healer if they are DPSing.


I will name one of those situations: When the devs do their testing before releasing content. The whole 'healer DPS isn't factored into clears' thing. Don't get me wrong. I never said healers not DPSing isn't a problem. It just doesn't lead to anything game breaking if they chose not to do it, nor is it as big of an issue as everyone makes it. I specifically stated that the problem is the design of content (and to a further extent, the way healers are designed), and the attitudes of the playerbase.

This is a cop out. Any healer not dpsing to the best of their ability in anything where enrage could be an issue is not only being lazy they are rude, inconsiderate and trolling. Full stop. To toy with your party's clears in content like this is just so, so bad. A wipe to enrage when a healer isn't dpsing is just as much on that healer's head as it is the heads of the dps who didn't meet their goals.

Notice how I use literally no numbers here. This is not a quantifiable thing you can go to fflogs and look up, beyond seeing someone doing zero dps. I'm not saying everyone under a certain percentage is bad, skill level is very much a thing, but if you are going to sit there as a healer and not try to put in something for dps you are at best ill-informed for the content that you're running and at worst stupid, entitled and mean.

Both Tanks and DPS jobs are designed in a way that they always have to be pushing something. This is not the case for healers. However, healers are the only ones tasked with keeping everyone alive. It is impossible with the way the game is designed for healers to not have downtime. What they choose to do with this downtime is where the meta and players attitudes come in. The faulty attitudes comes from those adamant about scorning healers for not DPSing, and the healers who outright refuse to add offensive skills to combat.

No. Just no. Healing is not a magic wand you wave to abolish basic decency and effort. Not dpsing as a healer at all is rude and entitled.

My thoughts exactly. But you're raising a different issue than healer DPS or lack of it. This situation is a faulty group, not a faulty healer. I've carried clears before. They're not rewarding. In fact, I usually feel like crap afterwards thinking it was all my fault even though in the back of my head I know I was contributing 110% to that group, and likely still got scolded because I was DPSing. Do you feel this is rewarding?

Playing to the best of my ability is always rewarding. Do I leave a roulette frustrated aftet getting an Ice Mage? Sure. I'm still proud of myself for doing my best though.

That is what this is all about. Everyone should be doing the best they can. People don't seem to understand that. In solo content feel free to sit back and let your chocobo kill things.

I am not someone's chocobo.

You've made a lovely point a bit above this section of your post - your party can exist with virtually no healing for huge swathes of time. You can be dead for half of many dungeon bosses and it won't matter. With that level of healing required there is nothing but ego standing in someone's way of dpsing as a healer. They think they're important enough to walk around behind a group of people killing monsters and get experience, loot and other rewards for what exactly? Throwing out a touch of hp here and there? Pathetic.

Healer DPS is only beneficial if they can reliably do it and still take care of the party. If they cannot, then it hurts the party. There is no disputing this. Your primary role and the reason why you are brought into content is to heal, and if you're not doing it you will be kicked far more swiftly than not DPSing. However, there is also no disputing that competent healer DPS benefits everyone, but I already made that point in my OP.

Everyone can reliably do it.

Everyone.

Will everyone be throwing as many stones as an experienced healer? No, of course not, but no one is saying there is a minimim number to hit.

Your response would be appropriate if someone came into this thread and said every healer with less than 60% dps uptime is trash. Or every healer who isn't purple should uninstall. No one is saying this, people are saying everyone in a party should be contributing a similar amount of effort.

I saw something in someone's signature lately. I meant to screenshot it and got distracted. I think it summerized this quite well. I'll paraphrase to the best of my ability.

Mitigation is everyone's responsibility.
Party HP is everyone's responsibility.
Enmity management is everyone's responsibility.
Dps is everyone's responsibility.
Just because you have one color icon doesn't make any of this not apply to you.

At the end of the day if you want to argue that any of that isn't true for any role in any content then I am done talking to you because you clearly have a very warped view on this game or perhaps teamwork in general.

[Connor]

I get where people are coming from on both sides of this argument. A healer should really be designed to ‘heal’ instead of push dps, but at the same time the game’s design demands thingsn to be the other way around. What something ‘should’ do rarely ever matches what it ‘can’ do.

That said, personally I’m not bothered by non-dpsing healers, probably because I don’t really do content with an enrage anymore. Likewise, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a healer in casual content be kicked or condemned for not dealing damage.

I think it’s important to realise that outside of savage it’s ok not to be pushing 99th percentile dps, I’d be surprised to see someone doing DoTs, healing when necessary and maybe even taking care of mechanics when necessary (so dps can focus on dps) get kicked or called out.

Not having the option of being dps healer / heal healer / support healer / whatever does kinda sucks and I’d like more options, but you kinda have to play the hand you’re dealt.

I’d like to hope that one day developers will look at player feedback and clashes and try to make healer jobs more accommodating for people who’d prefer a more supportive role, whether through creating a new job, role abilities or whatever. There’s bound to be some way to make everyone at least somewhat happy. But until that happens all one can do is accept that dealing damage is a major aspect of the healing role.