Idea to fix controversy about healer dps.

[KisaiTenshi]

A tank at minimum ilvl will not die in "2 hits" or "3 seconds".

Funny, the entire thing I described was Bardams mettle with the tank wearing all level 60 gear. Now i don't know if he screwed up the timing of the CD's or didn't use them, but he went straight for the big pull and got squished on the second hit.

[MoroMurasaki]

Funny, the entire thing I described was Bardams mettle with the tank wearing all level 60 gear. Now i don't know if he screwed up the timing of the CD's or didn't use them, but he went straight for the big pull and got squished on the second hit.

Kisai, be real. A tank in 60 at Bardam's pulling huge with no CDs is the quintessential healer complaint. It is by no means the standard. If you have to spamheal a tank in that situation no one would fault you, though I've found the mitigation from a Swiftcasted Holy to be invaluable.

The point ia that more than 99% of the instances you're healing in are not that situatuon.

You forget that we all play this game as well. We all heal roulettes too. We know what we need to do to effectively get through those bad situations... and guess what? I do it while still doing some measure of DPS.

You can too.

buffs

By all means then this sounds lovely. A friend of mine really dislikes dpsing as a healer, I think at least in part for RP reasons, so if something like this could be implimented that would be great.

[VanilleFang]

snip.

I literally said "out side wild scenarios". I mean like... come on.

Let me give you an example of a run I recently had, and no I wasn't the healer. I was the tank.

ANECDOTE INCOMING!!!!

So Doma Castle, granted I'm not in minimum ilvl gear but I'm not in very good gear.

Me being me I ignore the advice from a DPS to pull slow, since it was my first time tanking the dungeon, and I pull biggish. The WHM (granted, I knew them) had no trouble keeping me up while dpsing. I even pulled stupid stunts like not using enmity tools enough and the WHM pulled shit off me.

No one ever died, or even got close. The WHM pulled things (bosses included) off me about 5 times or so? (I did apologize) I was too busy trying to be "big deeps PLD" that I am still learning, so I forgot to use my enmity combo at times on bosses. Not once did anyone die, and the WHM was top or second DPS for the entire run.

Explain me this. You seem to think healers have to worry constsntly about things going awry so DPS should be kept to a minimum... yet this healer powered through with a (I fully admit) subpar tank keeping myself and everyone else alive while still dealing respectable DPS.

[MoroMurasaki]

... yet this healer powered through with a (I fully admit) subpar tank keeping myself and everyone else alive while still dealing respectable DPS.

Boy, this WHM certainly sounds absolutely wonderful... >.>

[EmmaVirgin]

So Doma Castle, granted I'm not in minimum ilvl gear but I'm not in very good gear.

the minimum to get access is ilvl 1

[Tridus]

And that's exactly the attitude that creates this idiotic feedback loop of "healers have lots of downtime, healers are lazy, healers should dps more" -> "why u let me die?"

Ever get a tank with minimum ilevel gear? They die in two hits. If you're trying to speed things along by not healing the tank every 3 seconds, that guy is going to die, and then blame you. Even worse, is when these guys try to do a big pull and die in one hit.

Only in some people's mind. People creating this feedback loop seem to have a hard time with the concept of priorities. If your tank is dying that fast, you'll be so busy healing him that you'll be active almost all the time. Thus, you're busy contributing to group success and not standing around doing nothing, which is fine.

"Tank in Shire doing double pulls in Bardam's mettle" is not even remotely the same situation as "tank in Savage gear in Kugane Castle", because in one of those you're healing constantly and in the other Regen can cover most of the healing while you've got nothing else to do, so why not toss some rocks?

The order has never been "ignore healing to DPS more". It's "don't stand around doing nothing waiting for something to heal, use that time to DPS."

[KisaiTenshi]

Explain me this. You seem to think healers have to worry constsntly about things going awry so DPS should be kept to a minimum... yet this healer powered through with a (I fully admit) subpar tank keeping myself and everyone else alive while still dealing respectable DPS.

The vast majority of complaints about healers not DPS'ing seems to come from people doing the PUG roulette, while expecting Savage content play style.

Here, I'll offer the opposite example as well, but this is like a 1 in 10 frequency of the awesome newbie/sprout tank, compared to the 3 in 10 for the tissue paper newbie/sprout tank. In Copperbell mines not to long ago, I had a newbie tank that literately sat there and did the "mark the targets" before every small pull. The auto-heal took care of all healing, I think I only needed to cast cure twice during the entire run.

These are outliers yes. However the average gripe on the forum is not from new people, rather it's from career tanks complaining about the healer doing DPS and not doing DPS. There is not a winning solution that applies 100% of the time. They're the only ones that are harassed for both doing and not doing their job. Tanks that use their own self-heal, and DPS that use their own self-heal, make the battle take longer, so if you're presenting yourself as not willing to heal them in favor of trying to speed up the battle by DPS'ing, they are lowering their DPS so they don't die. Hence as the healer, you should always be prioritizing healing.

But that is not the message the forum is giving healers, ever. No the message the forum gives is that if you're not maximizing your DPS you're bad at the game. Which is just not a good message to be sending when the reason for the queues is because not enough players want to play healer or tank because they keep getting grief from players for not adapting to their playstyle.

You know what I want SE to do? Take that "rating system" from FFXV after each fight and put it in the players face that the player is doing a good/adequate/poor job. That would put this argument to bed.

Only in some people's mind. People creating this feedback loop seem to have a hard time with the concept of priorities. If your tank is dying that fast, you'll be so busy healing him that you'll be active almost all the time. Thus, you're busy contributing to group success and not standing around doing nothing, which is fine.

"Tank in Shire doing double pulls in Bardam's mettle" is not even remotely the same situation as "tank in Savage gear in Kugane Castle", because in one of those you're healing constantly and in the other Regen can cover most of the healing while you've got nothing else to do, so why not toss some rocks?

The order has never been "ignore healing to DPS more". It's "don't stand around doing nothing waiting for something to heal, use that time to DPS."

Right, and as of Stormblood, there is really no excuse to stand around waiting to heal someone. In the average trash pull I can do Holy->Assize->Aero III before having to cast anything on the tank, and the tank will still be at 50% due to the heal from Assize. But in that example I used earlier, he used flash to grab the first group and ran to the second group lost about half his HP, and was dead in the second hit, where as I was expecting him to last at least 5 seconds.

Like I don't know why we keep having arguments on the forum about Healer DPS anymore. The only content that I ever bottom-out MP on is the 24-man raids, and that is entirely dependent on how many people miss the mechanics and require a revive, which can range from zero to "same guy just keeps dying to the same mechanic." If the party isn't hopeless, there's time to DPS.

[Miste]

But that is not the message the forum is giving healers, ever. No the message the forum gives is that if you're not maximizing your DPS you're bad at the game.

I don't see people on these forums conveying this message.....

No one who has any logic circuits expects healers to maximize/optimize DPS in DF. It isn't necessary to maximize healer DPS outside of Ultimate, EX primals, or Savage. (even EX primals is kinda slipping lately since Byakko EX is so easy imo)

So I really doubt most people on the forums think healers are bad at the game if they don't maximize DPS in DF.

I would say most posters only want healers to use anything more than zero of their DPS spells.

The problem people have is healers who stand or jump around and do nothing during pulls because the tank isn't even taking enough damage to heal anything. I've seen this often enough that it boggles my mind. Here is one example of many:

Just recently I ended up in a Expert dungeon with a Diurnal AST who would use Asp. Benefic regen on the tank, then Asp. Helios regen, then would stand there doing nothing for the next minute while the rest of the party killed all the enemies. She had some i360 gear (Byakko Weapon too) and it was obvious healer was her main and we received no new player bonus notification.

There is just no excuse for this kind of ridiculous play style. Literally the tank's health never dropped below 98% and the healer just stood there doing nothing for every pull (tank wasn't doing big pulls). First boss same thing she used none of her DPS spells, not even a Combust II, nothing. Just regens on the tank and stood there and only direct healed if the tank dropped below 70%.

That is the kind of healer people call bad and lazy.

However the average gripe on the forum is not from new people, rather it's from career tanks complaining about the healer doing DPS and not doing DPS. There is not a winning solution that applies 100% of the time. They're the only ones that are harassed for both doing and not doing their job.

I DPS on healer all the time and I've never been harassed by anyone else in my DF parties to "stop dpsing". I would think that is a rare thing, unless it happens to healers where people are dying due to said healer focusing too much on DPS and not healing.

No one advocates to let people die for healer DPS though. The winning solution is to learn how to heal and DPS together and find a balance. Anyone who griefs a healer for dpsing is being ridiculous unless the healer is failing at keeping the party alive because of it.

*The below is all general you statements and not specifically directed at you Kisai.

As a player you have to find out where your safe balance is based on your skill level. If you DPS a lot in dungeons and find people are dying a lot due to lack of healing then you have to adjust and scale back your DPS to do more healing and find that middle ground where you can DPS and everyone stays alive 99% of the time. (99% because mistakes happen to everyone sometimes, humans can't consistently be perfect so every healer has had someone die sometimes)

Yes, tank situations may vary, but practice and experience will have you learn how to judge a tank and how much room you have to DPS.

[Llus]

I absolutely hate it when I run a dungeon with a heal only healer. Partly because it takes MUCH longer to clear the content, but also because it's MUCH harder on the healer AND the tank. When I pull wall-to-wall, having a healer doing DPS does more than just kill mobs faster. For example, aetherochem hard's 2nd pull. With all the AoEs the mobs are tossing out it's SO much better to AoE stun the mobs vs spam curing. Swiftcast stun, slow cast dots, off global heal, slowcast stun, stun, AoE regens, focused regens, focused slowcast heal, more AoE DPS, shield repeat until the mob is dead. Learn that one trick of stunning mobs and that does more healing through mitigation than ANYTHING else you can do. The trick here is to learn how to EFECTIVELY DPS while healing - the quicker you kill a mob the less damage it does, when a mob is stunned it's a free 100% damage down for enough time to get a free hard cast.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

These are outliers yes. However the average gripe on the forum is not from new people, rather it's from career tanks complaining about the healer doing DPS and not doing DPS. There is not a winning solution that applies 100% of the time. They're the only ones that are harassed for both doing and not doing their job. Tanks that use their own self-heal, and DPS that use their own self-heal, make the battle take longer, so if you're presenting yourself as not willing to heal them in favor of trying to speed up the battle by DPS'ing, they are lowering their DPS so they don't die. Hence as the healer, you should always be prioritizing healing.

As per usual, you're speaking of things you do not understand. First and foremost, there is no DPS self-heal that hinders their DPS. I can active Bloodbath in-between GCDs, thus I'm perfectly fine. Paladins who use Clemency increase overall DPS because their TP will inevitably bottom out spamming Total Eclipse. Therefore, proper use of Clemency allow the healer to make up the difference. Likewise, Warrior and Dark Knight's primary damage sources during large pulls typically comes from Steel Cyclone and Abyssal Drain—both having a built in self-heal.

Regardless, no one has ever insisted healer prioritize DPS over healing. They argue healers should interweave DPS in-between because there simply isn't enough outgoing damage in most situations where constant healing is necessary. If you happen to get a tank who doesn't use CDs, is undergeared or both, then you adjust accordingly. My expectations in any given content is not orange tier parsing. I don't even have those standards for my own static. I do, however, expect you to DPS while healing otherwise you're simply standing around doing nothing.

This arguments persist when someone inevitably tries to defend healers who only want to heal.