What's your first impression of Eureka?

[Vidu]

In Eureka, a low level player cannot do anything. You cannot explore the map since it's is very hard due to the fact that you aggro everything, you cannot participate in killing anything as you deal crap damage -which includes trash and NMs-, and you get one-shotted by everything which means that you rely way more on others to give you a raise every 30 seconds. In short, at level 1, you have to be completly carried.

Everything I just said is the complete opposite when you get to high levels. You can move as you wish, you can participate and help killing stuff, few things are actually a threat to you.

So, no, it doesn't "play exactly" the same. It's actually totally different. I don't know how someone can say that you play in an identical way. That's objectively not true.

Correct me if I'm wrong - I havent played the higher levels yet, but what I've been doing on lowlevels is:
Go to an area with mobs about my (and/or my partys) level range, group them up, kill them, maybe do the FATE if it triggers.

From what I hear on the forum, the shout chat and from friends... arent you basically doing the same on high levels? Killing mobs around your level that are needed to spawn the FATE for Pazuzu?

My experience so far has been that I can indeed explore the map on a lower level, if I'm just careful.
I can indeed kill stuff - its just stuff in my level range. If I couldnt, no one would have ever made it to level 20, because no one would have been able to kill that level 1 fish and get their first exp.
And isnt a legit tactic for lowlevel people to just turn into raise-bots when they join higher level parties?
And doesnt the core-element stay the same? Aka: Isnt level 20 still just killing mobs to spawn FATEs? Sure, theres probably those QoL-changes you've mentioned, but arent you still spending most of your time just standing somewhere, killing one type pf mob over and over to spawn a FATE?

I do agree with the fact that Eureka is terribly uninviting - but honestly: Thats a pretty bad selling point for this content. Any form of entertainment should really try and show its best side during the first hour to convince people to stick with. If the first thing a content shows you is that you cant do anything (and not because you need to improve your skill or learn how to deal with mechanics but simply because even after leveling to level 70, you're being pushed back to fight rats that take ages to die), thats not very good design.
Wether or not it changes and how much a bit aside - locking out "lowlevel" players like this is a pretty bad move.
(And it doesnt really compare to locking out someone who just started the game from doing Savage - those "lowlevel" players are people with at least one class at level 70. Someone who just started the game has legit progression in terms of leveling, learning and getting new skills ahead of them - makes sense not to throw them into Savage directly. All the Eureka level are doing is making you dish out more damage while taking less - and since there arent any new Eureka-mechanics there isnt even a learning progress just on player-side...)

[Divinemights]

No it's not. I listed a bunch of things you do differently depending on your level. But it seems you ignored half my post.

No, don't tell them when you are getting way more protean crystals with proper party.
Also don't tell them that it is possible to get more than 1,300 protean crystals within 60 mins if you choose to do chain party instead of NM train.
Please also don't tell them that you are only need to do NM when you are working on relic armor.
This thread only allows one voice and one voice only.
If you are offering advise, you are labelled as Diadem 3.0 lover.
If you are explaining the mechanics, you are labelled as White Knight.
If you said you likes Eureka, apparently you are suffering Sunk-Cost Fallacy.

We also need not to remind them that the best way to show a game company that player base don't like a content is "not doing that content"
Please also not to remind them that only way to punish a subscribed mmorpg is un-subscribe like we did to Blizzard with WoD

[Reynhart]

the only tangible difference between 1 and 20 is how fast I can move on the map due to my mounts/access to the aetherites.

Being in the train at level 5 is really not the same at higher levels for me.
The more you level, the more you can take an active part in this "community", even if the gameplay is the same. You can gather mobs yourself instead of waiting for others to do it, you can run around helping dead people instead of fearing death at every corner, you can tank some mobs (I've tried going into a party as a tank lvl4...not very effective)
And the more time you spend in Eureka, you're also more accustomed to the zone and where are everything, instead of following everyone, making you more invested in the train.

It's strange to say, but Eureka is a very interesting social experiment for this game, compared to the other content where, at most, people barely say "Hello" when starting a dungeon.

[Vstarstruck]

No, don't tell them when you are getting way more protean crystals with proper party.
Also don't tell them that it is possible to get more than 1,300 protean crystals within 60 mins if you choose to do chain party instead of NM train.
Please also don't tell them that you are only need to do NM when you are working on relic armor.
This thread only allows one voice and one voice only.
If you are offering advise, you are labelled as Diadem 3.0 lover.
If you are explaining the mechanics, you are labelled as White Knight.
If you said you likes Eureka, apparently you are suffering Sunk-Cost Fallacy.

We also need not to remind them that the best way to show a game company that player base don't like a content is "not doing that content"
Please also not to remind them that only way to punish a subscribed mmorpg is un-subscribe like we did to Blizzard with WoD

why are you being so insulting?

[Okamimaru]

why are you being so insulting?

Asked the pot of the kettle...

[Vidu]

No, don't tell them when you are getting way more protean crystals with proper party.
Also don't tell them that it is possible to get more than 1,300 protean crystals within 60 mins if you choose to do chain party instead of NM train.
Please also don't tell them that you are only need to do NM when you are working on relic armor.
This thread only allows one voice and one voice only.
If you are offering advise, you are labelled as Diadem 3.0 lover.
If you are explaining the mechanics, you are labelled as White Knight.
If you said you likes Eureka, apparently you are suffering Sunk-Cost Fallacy.

We also need not to remind them that the best way to show a game company that player base don't like a content is "not doing that content"
Please also not to remind them that only way to punish a subscribed mmorpg is un-subscribe like we did to Blizzard with WoD

I feel you're missing the point of people who voice an opinion against Eureka a little.
You're approaching this as if people are only complaining about it being a grind - a lot of us dont mind a grind. I know I personally dont - done multiple relics, got primal-mounts in ARR and HW when they were current, got my PvP-level up to 50 back when queuetimes were hours long.
The problem I have with Eureka is: Its not fun. I've tried playing it "both ways" - I've tried the FATEs, I've tried the mob-chains. Neither was fun to me - and not because the payoff wasnt great or at least not only because of that but rather because the core-mechanic of standing in one spot and pulling mob after mob after mob (something you're suggesting as the "right way" to play this) isnt fun but boring to me.
I'm happy for you if you feel differently! I dont understand how anyone can find it fun to stand in one spot for an hour and chain-pull mobs, but I suppose my boyfriend cant understand that I like crafting, so classic situation of people liking different things.
I'm happy for you that Eureka is a thing that you like already. But you know what? I'd like to like it too, so I'm trying to explain why thats not the case yet and what could be done to make me like it. The devs will probably never read it, I know - but I know for sure that they wont read it if I dont even type it out.

Please understand that a lot of complains arent about "we're not getting enough crystals" but "getting crystals isnt fun". And getting told "oh you're just playing this content wrong!" isnt helping when the right way to play the content still isnt fun because the core-element isnt engaging and intresting.
Its not that people dont understand the content and need advice on it - its people understanding the content and still not having fun with it.
Thats the problem: That the content, no matter if we play it FATE-train or mob-chain, isnt fun. Not that we dont know how to get the most out of it.
I know how to eat white chocolate. I still dont like it.

[Rokke]

Try "nuking down" a Lv.15 enemy when you're Lv.2. You can't. You sit there and wait for others to do it. You actually don't play, because you don't have a choice.
Now you are the one killing stuff. You can go wherever you want and start progress on making a NM spawn (ie. Pazuzu).
Except if you like going AFK and wait for others to do the work. But at least now you have the choice.

In both cases, if you get one-shotted by a NM of your level, you're doing something horribly wrong. Besides, that's not even relevant as you most likely not only go for FATEs of your level. At Lv.20 you will be above almost everything, while as a Lv.1, you will not.

No it's not. I listed a bunch of things you do differently depending on your level. But it seems you ignored half my post.

Even before the train became the meta there was little danger in exploring due to the sheer number of people that can raise you on the map. Like Krotoan, I had already trekked up to both aetherites long before I could use them. It was hardly an impossible feat. More non impossible feats: At lv 1 I was in a full party of lv 1's and 2's fighting lv 4's. Our tank would pull 2 or 3, our dps were AoEing, and I was healing. By the time I was 5 in a group of 5's & 6's we were killing lv 10s. Round up 2 or 3, nuke them down. Can you guess what I'm doing at level 20?

I round up 2 and nuke them down

Correct me if I'm wrong - I havent played the higher levels yet, but what I've been doing on lowlevels is:
Go to an area with mobs about my (and/or my partys) level range, group them up, kill them, maybe do the FATE if it triggers.

From what I hear on the forum, the shout chat and from friends... arent you basically doing the same on high levels? Killing mobs around your level that are needed to spawn the FATE for Pazuzu?

I am level 20 and have 7 relics: Thats literally all you do from lv 1 to 20 as thats all there is to do in Eureka.

[Fyce]

-snip-

- At Lv.1, the number of FATE you can spawn yourself is zero.
- At Lv.5 you can spawn Sabotender, Lord and Teles. If they weren't stomped by the FATE train, that is. If you are working on one of these and the FATE train comes, they'll pretty much one-shot any trash you were farming. You'll instantly become utterly useless.
- At Lv.10 you get more options, but at that point most players simply try to follow the FATE train. For low level FATEs, you can participate. For higher level ones, you just hide in your corner and hope no monster see you. Once the NM pops, you throw one skill at it which will do something like 13 points of damage, and then you go hide again. Unless you are a Rez Mage or a healer, at least you can keep your fingers busy throwing heals/raises with these jobs.
- At Lv.15 you start being useful for the crowd as you can fight against a bunch of enemies. You still won't be as effective as a Lv19-20, but at least you don't feel completly out of place. There are still some trash and FATEs that will wreck you though.
- At Lv.20, now you're the captain. You can go and kill wherever and whatever you want. Mostly. You butcher all trash the FATE train usually do. And you can also AFK, but that's your choice, it's not the game forcing you to do so.

If people don't see how the leveling process gives you more and more freedom and effectiveness, Lv.1 and 20 being complete opposites in that aspect, then I'm sorry for them.

Even before the train became the meta there was little danger in exploring due to the sheer number of people that can raise you on the map. Like Krotoan, I had already trekked up to both aetherites long before I could use them. It was hardly an impossible feat. More non impossible feats: At lv 1 I was in a full party of lv 1's and 2's fighting lv 4's. Our tank would pull 2 or 3, our dps were AoEing, and I was healing. By the time I was 5 in a group of 5's & 6's we were killing lv 10s. Round up 2 or 3, nuke them down. Can you guess what I'm doing at level 20?

I round up 2 and nuke them down

So, you never joinded the FATE train and felt utterly useless when they were killing stuff 10-12 levels above you? You only ever killed monsters and FATEs of your own level, implying that you could even find a group of people with the same objectives?

Kudos to you then. You actually played the way the devs probably intended it to be played.
It means that my point was not applying to you, but to the thousands people following the FATE trains.

[Gnorok]

-
snip...

So the main difference between lvl 1 and lvl 20 gameplay is that you don't feel so useless. A real gamechanger ;-)

My own experience of Eureka after grinding 6 levels: Boring as hell and it isn't getting better as I'm now behind the wave and even the NMs near me are nuked down before I can reach them. Following the fate train and simply leeching is not my cup of tea.

[Vidu]

- At Lv.1, the number of FATE you can spawn yourself is zero.
- At Lv.5 you can spawn Sabotender, Lord and Teles. If they weren't stomped by the FATE train, that is. If you are working on one of these and the FATE train comes, they'll pretty much one-shot any trash you were farming. You'll instantly become utterly useless.
- At Lv.10 you get more options, but at that point most players simply try to follow the FATE train. For low level FATEs, you can participate. For higher level ones, you just hide in your corner and hope no monster see you. Once the NM pops, you throw one skill at it which will do something like 13 points of damage, and then you go hide again. Unless you are a Rez Mage or a healer, at least you can keep your fingers busy throwing heals/raises with these jobs.
- At Lv.15 you start being useful for the crowd as you can fight against a bunch of enemies. You still won't be as effective as a Lv19-20, but at least you don't feel completly out of place. There are still some trash and FATEs that will wreck you though.
- At Lv.20, now you're the captain. You can go and kill wherever and whatever you want. Mostly. You butcher all trash the FATE train usually do. And you can also AFK, but that's your choice, it's not the game forcing you to do so.

If people don't see how the leveling process gives you more and more freedom and effectiveness, Lv.1 and 20 being complete opposites in that aspect, then I'm sorry for them.

No, no, you dont understand what I'm saying.

Thanks for this detailed explantion, but let me ask you this:
Is spawning the Sabotender at level 5 much different from spawning the Pazuzu at level 20?
Because I'm under the assumption that in both cases you're mainly killing the mobs triggering the FATE, using the same rotation and the same way of doing so (aka: standing in one place, gathering mobs, murdering them, repeat).

All you're telling me is "You'll have a greater variety of monster-models to look at while you're still doing the same thing over and over again".

The intresting parts in our usual content - dungeons, raids, trials - are always the new mechanics. They're making the content exiting and intresting, not our basic rotation. And as far as I know and can see, Eureka lacks those mechanics more or less completly.

I understand you get more freedom and more power - but does that really change what you're doing in there? Doesnt it only allow you to pick from more monster-skins to pick from which one is gonna be the one to look at for the next hour?

Honestly, what you're describing doesnt sound as if the gameplay is fundamentally different between level 1 and 20 - it only sounds as if I have a greater variety of training-dummy-monsters to look at.