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  1. #361
    Player
    Dzian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    2,837
    Character
    Scarlett Dzian
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 76
    Quote Originally Posted by RiyahArp View Post
    stuff.
    I think a big part of this isn't so much the mechanics of a given fight more the resources players have that allow them to trivialize so much stuff.

    The reason it doesn't really make a difference if a hit knocks 50% of your up off or 75% for example isn't really down to how powerful a healers cures are. It's more down to those healers have near infinite mp.

    Same can be said with raising dead players raising a players that's died isn't usually a problem because healers can toss out a half dozen raises and still have infinite mp. There's rarely any consideration for resources. Oh he's dead swiftcast raise straight away. You've nearly always got enough mp. The swiftcast cooldown is probably the only thing that stops you getting raised straight away.

    It's the same with dps. A lot of people these days consider invigorate a waste of a role skill because outside of some trash pulls tp is a virtually infinite resource on most jobs these days.. Even if players die 2 or 3 times they still don't really find themselves tp starved.

    And in a way it's the same with tanks the difference between tank stance and dos stance is negligible in terms of how hard you get hit and once again because healers have virtually infinite mp it really makes no difference. If being in tank stance meant a cure 1 would heal you but being in dos stance meant you needed a cure 2. Which would actually drain the healers mp that much quicker it might actually make a difference but as is. It just doesn't matter cos you'll never run out of mp anyway.

    If a healers had finite mp for example then a dps being hit for 50% hp or 75% hp would likely matter more.

    Same kinda thing with to. If being weakened slowed your to regen it might actually matter more that you died. Instead of just being able to get right back into it....

    All in all resource management has become largely laughable of late. Which i think is definitely a contributing factor to how easy everything is.
    (0)
    Last edited by Dzian; 03-07-2018 at 02:59 AM.

  2. #362
    Player
    Tridus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    The Goblet
    Posts
    1,510
    Character
    Cecelia Stormfeather
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzian View Post
    If a healers had finite mp for example then a dps being hit for 50% hp or 75% hp would likely matter more.
    It's one Cure II either way, unless you need them to full right this second (which you usually don't). That has lots to do with how powerful healer cures are, although if MP was scarce people would probably actually use Cure I occasionally at 70.
    (1)
    Survivor of Housing Savage 2018.
    Discord: Tridus#2642

  3. #363
    Player RiyahArp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1,471
    Character
    Riyah Arpeggio
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    The thing is though, we are not really getting "gradual" now, with some of the suggestions. A DPS check with potential DPS down...we already have with Nidhogg hard in the add phase. I'm not sure there is any strong infirmity similar. We're talking about fairly hard mechanics with decent timers, and they won't be appreciably different than from ex fights or easy savage ones.

    The only way this dungeon can be different is that bosses have HP pools that don't take fifteen minutes to kill, don't have a strict enrage that kills you at 15:01, and have slower mechanics. To be honest, you're probably looking at ARR EX primal difficulty in a boss or so, as if we had full poetics synced. So if you introduce this, you kind of are going to make a big step up in difficulty, based on the casual player's reaction.

    I think it's probably better overall if you just kept current ex level trial difficulty, and just required it for story completion if you wanted to do that. Optional experts would just get ignored; there's no real reward that you can't get in other ways in this game from them.
    (0)
    Last edited by RiyahArp; 03-07-2018 at 03:19 AM.

  4. #364
    Player
    F_Maximillian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    The Lavender Beds
    Posts
    225
    Character
    Ferox Maximillian
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    I honestly don't remember the last time I've wiped in "casual content". I'm sure it has happened but I only remember vaguely complaining to friends about it after the fact not the incidents themselves. Not every run has been so horrible that it couldn't be completed and I don't think I've seen enrage on anything outside of an ex primal or savage if they do exist.

    However, the amount of times I was the top damage in the group regardless of my role (tank healer or dps) or the last one alive that had to finish a boss myself in level 70 content is abnormally high. I'm not some god tier player in fact I'm probably average or less. However, it has definitely lessened the enjoyment for me when I feel like I'm dragging people kicking and screaming through content they voluntarily chose to enter when they could have simply finished whatever it is they were watching/doing before queueing up for the dungeon.

    They could have taken the time to read their tooltips and better study their jobs, applied common sense on not standing around doing nothing or spamming heals on a full hp tank, done some quick math to see that aoe is better on large pulls than single target with nothing but their tooltips and a calculator, or saw that defensive cooldowns are not "oh shit buttons" for when things go bad but preventative measures to keep them from going bad.

    However, I say nothing to these people. I say hello at the beginning of the dungeon and take care at the end because it seems pointless to say more than that. I did as others do and simply grin and bear it since I didn't want to sit around waiting for a fixed group for every bit of content I do because they aren't up to par. In the beginning I did try offering help and when the mentor system came out I was happy that maybe this would be the lead-in to people being more open to accepting advice (I truly enjoy helping people learn on mmos, it has always been one of my favorite things to do). However, we all know how that turned out and I took my crown off not long after and haven't put it back on since. I also haven't bothered offering advice since nobody seems to want it, as another poster in a different thread said "how dare I be so concieted to assume other people want my "opinion in a dungeon".

    Now, I've taken to accepting and putting into practice other advice. I don't do roulettes anymore nor do I bother capping weekly tomes or doing normal mode omega for the weekly drops. I stick to playing only with people I know and trust to actually play the game when they're in a group with me. I login for savage and if I still feel like playing try to help some pug groups clear, usually with no success. I dread everything I do feeling like a slog because people would rather not put in the bare minimum effort to respect my time and the time of the others in their group. I don't expect top tier play but it is draining to see people obviously expecting someone else to pick up their slack and putting no effort in, especially when you get matched with multiple people who all had the same idea.

    I've realized that this will never change and the game will simply keep changing to cater to those types of people until even they find it too easy and get bored/quit. For now I simply enjoy what I can with those I know but it's saddening because meeting new people and teaching are some of the things that got me hooked on mmos so long ago. It's a shame that people would rather promote that people exist within their closed circles and disregard those around them but times change and so the genre will change with it.
    (1)
    Last edited by F_Maximillian; 03-07-2018 at 04:27 AM.

  5. #365
    Player
    Ursa_Vonfiebryd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    727
    Character
    Ursa Nightrain
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KaivaC View Post
    Asking for better players without being a dick.
    I agree with you. But I also see many, many posts about increasing difficulty on high-end content to widen the skill gap. Which is just selfish. I understand wanting more competence for these type of duties but creating a vacuum (when the hardcore players inevitably finish with said content then piss off to other games) is not the answer either. I believe the devs incorporated the mentor system for this but I think I've seen a Mentor explain something during a duty ONCE. And the game is crawling with them.

    The short of it is that it falls to us to make those players better. You (and all of us) have to be part of the solution. Yes, you're still going to get the players that are just scraping by or want a carry but most players are willing to learn and telling them to 'go watch a video' isn't really the same as experience inside the duty. I've found most of the 'bad' players just lack a general understanding of the Job they are playing (rotations and such) and this is where FC's and the Mentor system are supposed to pick up slack but don't.

    Or can't. I've seen seasoned veterans pick up a new job and to try to learn on their own and decline advice on how best utilize said job. I've seen this quite a bit actually. And then there are the Jumpers. Its a lot to contend with, but the only thing the devs can do at this point is update the Smiths to have individual job tutorials and have them for 50, 60, and 70 to cover all the rotations. Until then, if you see someone playing their job wrong, say something. If you have to be a dick, be a dick. (I've learned the most from straight up assholes--it was horrible but I learned). The only way we are going to improve the player base is to call it out when we see stuff obviously FUBAR. (I'm not talking parse. I'm talking obvious job mistakes). We might get kicked, but we might make a better player too. The risk is worth the reward IMO.
    (1)
    Last edited by Ursa_Vonfiebryd; 03-07-2018 at 04:39 AM. Reason: Long post is Long

  6. #366
    Player
    Dzian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    2,837
    Character
    Scarlett Dzian
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 76
    Quote Originally Posted by Tridus View Post
    It\\'s one Cure II either way, unless you need them to full right this second (which you usually don\\'t). That has lots to do with how powerful healer cures are, although if MP was scarce people would probably actually use Cure I occasionally at 70.
    That\\'s kinda it they use cure 2 cos there\\'s no reason to use cure 1. It\\'s not like they\\'ll run outta mp.

    Same thing with ale healing see whims toss out Medicas on entire party when maybe 2 got hit and the other 6 have full hp. But no is infinite so it doesn\\'t matter.

    Having power heals isn\\'t such a problem. It\\'s having virtually Infinite amounts of them. It takes a pretty horrendous party to run a healers out of mp.

    If that dps failed a mechs and lost 75% of his health but only got a cure 1 because mp was finite if he failed the mechs again he\\'s dead. But when they can just toss cure 2 or something with no consideration for there mp that\\'s an issue.

    Kinda like I mentioned with raise. If your dead and takes 30 seconds to get raised 9 times out of 10 it\\'s not because of mp. It\\'s because swiftcast isn\\'t up.....

    Players simply have to many resources. Tp and mp are both virtually infinite. Make them finite and add more mechs that drain them. Like those hammers that behemoth drops in library hard they hit you goodbye half your tp / mp. Trouble is you have so much of it anyway it just doesn\\'t matter
    (0)

  7. #367
    Player
    Raven2014's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,636
    Character
    Ribald Hagane
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    People don't become "better" when a game "enforces consequences"; "good" play simply adjusts to what newly becomes optimal.
    Not true. When I'm raiding, I'm very good at mechanic in raid. Because every time a mistake is made in raid, I got punished for it, either I gonna die myself or I gonna wipe the party, both equivalently undesirable outcome. If I don't know my rotation, I will hit enrage, so I have to become good at what I do, there is no choice. In dungeon though, like I said the "if it doesn't kill me I don't have to move" prevail. Why should I move out of that AOE, or get way from that proximity marker if I gonna hit for 33% of my health anyway even if I'm in it or near? Why do I have to try and stack with the group for stack marker, when I know as long as two people in there, it only gonna hit them for 50% HP?

    I do believe people learn best via re-enforcement. You can't teach people to avoid AOE by just putting a bunch AOE in the fight for them to 'practice'. In fact, it's actually counter productive to the goal. Because if every time someone got hit with an AOE and it doesn't do anything serious to them, the behavior you're reinforcing is "I don't have to dodge this, does nothing to me anyway", you're not training people to avoid AOE, you're actually training people to stand in it. Now, all you need to have is 1 AOE in the fight, but if they get hit, they die. You'll be surprise how fast people will make a conscious afford on their own even without the pushing of others to NOT stand in that AOE next time.
    (1)

  8. #368
    Player RiyahArp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1,471
    Character
    Riyah Arpeggio
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzian View Post
    I think a big part of this isn't so much the mechanics of a given fight more the resources players have that allow them to trivialize so much stuff.
    Think I discussed this with people sometime. You'd wind up making healers dps less, and use more globals for healing. You'd also have some pretty hard limits; it would be a guaranteed wipe because you'd have no way to fix a mistake. If two dps die, it'd be back to start. That's making this more of a different game than it is now.
    (0)

  9. #369
    Player
    Ilyrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    607
    Character
    Ilyrian Silvermoon
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    So - i'm really not in a place to call this...
    i'm in no way part of the raid scene in this game - at all. But certain people in this thread - and I'm only mentioning this because there is a stupid level of arrogance on display here - post atrocious FFlogs - like really bad. So I would just suggest you get your own house in order before trying to assume you're not part of the problem you're all creating.
    (4)

  10. #370
    Player
    Nhadaly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    90
    Character
    Aruna Erya
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyrian View Post
    So - i'm really not in a place to call this...
    i'm in no way part of the raid scene in this game - at all. But certain people in this thread - and I'm only mentioning this because there is a stupid level of arrogance on display here - post atrocious FFlogs - like really bad. So I would just suggest you get your own house in order before trying to assume you're not part of the problem you're all creating.
    While that may be the case in regards to their fflogs as ive checked myself, they do have a point, you can go to any pug for any type of end-game content (even stuff like rabanastre) and see for yourself.
    (1)

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