Eureka: What we know and what we want to know

[MageBlack]

I don't get the hate from fates (other than the PTSD from people relic farming, which had more to do with it being bullshit RNG than the fate system itself, which just gets blamed)

Most fates are just "kill these monsters" or "kill this boss". What's to hate about that? It's not that particularly different from running a dungeon and killing things is what I'd expect from a battle class. A fate boss is honestly not much different from a hunt boss (or a NM). Killing things in monster fates is not different from just going around killing things.

What else do you expect?

I think the only aspect of FATES that I dont want to see in this content is the big glowy blue marker with details on it. I'm hoping for this content to be heavily player driven and less hand holding on the game system side of things. Like, i want players to have to figure out spawn conditions, Locations, tactics, Who drops what rewards, etc.

[Addicted]

Most fates are just "kill these monsters" or "kill this boss". What's to hate about that? It's not that particularly different from running a dungeon and killing things is what I'd expect from a battle class. A fate boss is honestly not much different from a hunt boss (or a NM). Killing things in monster fates is not different from just going around killing things.

You just answered your own question - it's more boring and mind numbing than watching paint dry.

[Squintina]

You just answered your own question - it's more boring and mind numbing than watching paint dry.

No I didn't. Read it again and stop projecting.

I asked, specifically, what exactly people expect out of Eureka (or any pve battle content really) that would be SOOOOO much different from fates? Because I.don't.see.it.

Maybe the problem is that players don't even like battle content that isn't extreme boss fights and they don't realize it, in which case Eureka is doomed to fail as it won't be that type of content.

There aren't 1000 ways to do battle content. It's all some version of "go kill shit"

There is nothing different about a "kill monsters" fate and a dungeon trash pull
There is nothing different about a "kill boss" fate and a hunt (which there are very active hunt communities and NM would just be another variation of that).

So if you find fates boring, that just sounds like you find all battle content that isn't extreme/savage/ultimate boring, in which case, what semi-casual content CAN they do that would please you?

[Nestama]

A fate boss is honestly not much different from a hunt boss (or a NM).

Not quite. Regular FATE bosses have little to no mechanics going for them. They tend to just be a bigger version of a regular mob and just use one AoE (two if they're adventurous). Hunts (A and S ranks) have mechanics going for them, which makes them more interesting than a regular FATE boss, though the downside with them is that their HP doesn't scale, so if you have a bunch of people in the zone killing them, they'll die before they get a chance to show you what they can do.

I'm hoping the NM's will be on the same level (if not, higher) as Odin, Behemoth, Coeurlregina, Foxy Lady and Ixion.

[Squintina]

Not quite. Regular FATE bosses have little to no mechanics going for them. They tend to just be a bigger version of a regular mob and just use one AoE (two if they're adventurous). Hunts (A and S ranks) have mechanics going for them, which makes them more interesting than a regular FATE boss, though the downside with them is that their HP doesn't scale, so if you have a bunch of people in the zone killing them, they'll die before they get a chance to show you what they can do.

I'm hoping the NM's will be on the same level (if not, higher) as Odin, Behemoth, Coeurlregina, Foxy Lady and Ixion.

But that's not an issue with the fate system itself...They could put fate bosses with some mechs if they wanted to.
They can, and have, made tougher fate bosses like in "The Eyes Have It" or..you know..Odin.

The original comment I replied to had nothing to do about difficulty. It was a hate for the FATE system itself.

Have they said if this has FATEs in it? I really and truly would have to ask the development team "what the heck, people?!" if there are FATEs in this. And if there are FATEs, can I do I have alternatives to them so I can get things done in Eureka?

I have done thousands upon thousands of FATEs and am utterly sick of them. I cringe every time I hear its detestable fanfare music and indications. I hate them so much. Its fine if they are an option for those who like them, but I just want them far away from me.

Which, whether the NM is via a random direct spawn (a la Hunt) or via a fate spawn (a la Odin), what difference does it really make?

And then a person said fates were boring:

You just answered your own question - it's more boring and mind numbing than watching paint dry.

If super easy monsters that are required to kill in mass numbers (you know , boring farming stuff) is done via direct monster kills or via a fate, what difference does it make? either one will be equally boring. The medium of how they spawn is hardly relevant, the task itself would be what makes it boring.

If a person wants to say "I hope they have alternatives to brain dead content" sure, but to have an issue with FATEs is just ridiculous. FATE system, in and of itself, just means a timed area where a specific event spawns. Its timer, its goals (monsters vs boss), its difficulty, can vary from fate to fate.

Which is why when people say things like "fates are boring" it's just so illogical, because the fate system itself has almost little to do with why they find it boring.
Past implementations of fates are boring because power creep (no ilvl sync) makes them too easy and a lack of variety in monster mechanics, but that isn't to say new fates in new areas can't be made more difficult/interesting.

That'd be like if I said "dungeons are boring" just because all dungeons <30 are mindnumbling easy now because of power creep (apparently they were hard once upon a time), despite that there are harder dungeons out there with interesting mechanics.

[Tsumdere]

I don't get the hate from fates (other than the PTSD from people relic farming, which had more to do with it being bullshit RNG than the fate system itself, which just gets blamed)

Most fates are just "kill these monsters" or "kill this boss". What's to hate about that? It's not that particularly different from running a dungeon and killing things is what I'd expect from a battle class. A fate boss is honestly not much different from a hunt boss (or a NM). Killing things in monster fates is not different from just going around killing things.

What else do you expect?

I just don't want to hear the FATE music and have that gigantic lettering appear on my screen. But I like to keep the rest of the game's music on. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Seriously, give me a way to disable FATE music and the FATE logo that appears and I might like FATEs.

[Squintina]

I just don't want to hear the FATE music and have that gigantic lettering appear on my screen. But I like to keep the rest of the game's music on. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Seriously, give me a way to disable FATE music and the FATE logo that appears and I might like FATEs.

This is probably the only real reason I've seen for why a person might dislike the FATE system (and not an underlying reason that they're associating with FATEs)

[MageBlack]

I asked, specifically, what exactly people expect out of Eureka (or any pve battle content really) that would be SOOOOO much different from fates? Because I.don't.see.it.

There aren't 1000 ways to do battle content. It's all some version of "go kill shit"

There is nothing different about a "kill monsters" fate and a dungeon trash pull
There is nothing different about a "kill boss" fate and a hunt (which there are very active hunt communities and NM would just be another variation of that).

So if you find fates boring, that just sounds like you find all battle content that isn't extreme/savage/ultimate boring, in which case, what semi-casual content CAN they do that would please you?

I did sort of answer you above, maybe I need to elaborate more.

What I'm hoping from Eureka that I wouldnt get from FATE's is more strategy and effort on the part of players. It would be the difference between Odin popping in the shroud, Special weather changes, checking your map for blue circle, everyone gathers, stand in place, smack till dead. The last three are pretty much par for the course in this game, very little thought needs to go into battle content outside of Savage while its relevant.

Now what I'm hoping from Eureka in the Odin example would be Odin pops, Special weather changes, all interested players in the zone now search for where he popped up, eventually someone finds him, shouts location, players check the map, shout they are coming/party invites/etc, gather at location, initiate fight, fight has actual boss mechanics that need dodging/stunning/(hopefully fewer telegraphed moves)/etc, Tank needs to have Thunder affinity, DPS need to have Earth affinity, (both are hot swappable depending on spec), Death penalty will add sense of danger to dying, Smack till dead.

That's just the ones that spawn on a timer, there could be some that are item spawned. Player gets item from X source, shouts "I got the X item! Anyone wanting to join meet me at the alter of Storms?", players communicate to arrange the fight, then same as above.

I totally understand that eventually players will have a forum dedicated to spawn times/conditions/etc and some of that initial mystery and excitement will dissipate, again i'm fine with that. Yoshi-P has already said that this content will grow with the patches so I can only hope new monsters and triggers will be introduced throughout the life of the content. The rewards are pretty simple but the time its supposed to take will draw that out, not like Diadem where you are just fighting the RNGesus. Eureka will have tangible progress and goals to work towards.

The thing is a lot of this is still speculation until we can actually do the content, these are just some of my hopes for it. Playing Diadem was sorta fun but really it was party spawn, fly directly to first goal, kill, fly to next goal, kill, fly to next goal, kill, end content, gain meager reward and hope its what you wanted. Above and beyond the killing monsters Eureka will have its own level system and elemental system not used elsewhere in the game. Like a game within a game, gameception.

Hope this makes at least a little sense? I know its not drastically different than FATE's as they exist in the open world but it doesnt need to reinvent the wheel to give it a fresh feel, at least for a time. My worry for the content is it will be like every other piece of content they release, fun for a week, after that "OMG really? Skalla again? Kill me now..." With how many times its been pushed back, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[MageBlack]

-snip-

Now its my turn to say "Stop Projecting" What both of the people you quoted said specifically, even within the quote themselves, was they didnt like the FATE's. They said nothing about FATE mechanics or Hunts or other content. YOU were the one to extend FATE's to those areas then base your argument on that.

[Zojha]

I asked, specifically, what exactly people expect out of Eureka (or any pve battle content really) that would be SOOOOO much different from fates?

Expect? Nothing. That's precisely why I have low hopes for it.

What I would like is more engaging combat. Like, from level 1 to 70, the formula for trash (and most overworld) mobs is: A non-interactive, unavoidable autoattack and one extra skill you may or may not be able to interact with.

That gets boring quick, because just one ability that I might actually do something about is, uh... just a minor step up from a striking dummy. And hitting a striking dummy isn't exciting for long. Sure, I get damaged as well, but since there's nothing I can do about that, that doesn't make things more engaging. It's not a fighting game where you trade blows, it's a fighting game in "no stagger" mode where hitting the other person doesn't even disrupt their combo, thereby turning the fight into a mere DPS race with a combo that gets repeated ad nauseam.

What to do about it? The combat system unfortunately doesn't allow for much - It's 0815 tab target trinity standard. The very framework of the game is set up to have very little interaction and instead has everyone doing their own thing side by side most of the time. Because of that, most (not all) mechanics, i.e. attacks you can actually interact with, end up amounting to little more than moving around in an arbitrary pattern. But this little bit of interactivity is something I would like to have more of, especially when doing things solo.

And this is where I'd like to say FATE =!= FATE. The fox lady is a pretty cool FATE that I'd love to repeat more often - doubly so if I didn't need tank&healers to survive her autoattacks. A standard boss FATE however, I find dull, much like PotD, much like regular FATEs, open world mobs, dungeon trash or pretty much any trash mob. And I don't expect Eureka mobs to break the mold in any noteworthy way here.

Anyway... that's just my take on the whole thing.