Discussing your 'unpopular' opinions

[RiyahArp]

The gutted stuff is bull, PvP back in 3.0 was a big pain in the butt for most players, since the PvE kit was so unsuited to anything but stationary, huge HP bosses it wasn't funny. You ignored most of the PvE kit and worked together a weird, semi-gimped PvP kit out of the remains. That PvP was mostly about CC and burst if not one-shotting through timed use of Limit breaks, and over 3.0 they kept nerfing those actions because they legitimately were not fun.

People are complaining not because it was legitimately better, but because of nostalgia goggles. Might as well complain about how not needing to aply 2-3 Dots for every class was removed in HW, or how BLM is arguably worse since they aren't on 3.0's original strict enochian timer.

[RiyahArp]

It WAS better and you're just not good at this game.

half the pve kit was literally worthless, ffs.

-DOTs were worthless since healers kept heal over times on everyone, and really only the ones that procced an additional effect were used, i.e bard's ones. You couldn't maintain them at all, because of the nature of pvp engagements over pve ones; targets ran away, stayed out of melee range, and more.
-AOEs were worthless in general, despite the overall potency over single attacks, spike damage was king. At best aoe damage could be used to interrupt claiming a node in seal rock, but in other modes literally was wasted space. The only aoe attacks that mattered were sleep and cometeor.
-Any damaging spell on any healer was useless, because you had no clerics in it, and it was impossible to gear with enough int to make it damage, even if you got rid of mind. Some were legitmately bad; holy would do 300 points of damage and give every single person in range stun resistance.
-CC in general was present, but veered between overpowered and useless; overpowered in feast, often useless in FL since 24 people per side could apply resistance real quick unless coordinated. Especially if you had a smn with titan on sic.
-You had a lot of single attacks designed for maintenance in PvE, that became ridiculous to try and apply and refresh in pvp.

It was a pain in the butt for most players who didn't make an effort to learn how to play and play well, much like any Extreme or Savage content would be for anyone who doesn't attempt to learn it. The old kits - and we've debated this many times now - natively had skills that proved to be highly effective in PvP where they were otherwise unused in PvE. I can't speak for most other jobs, but for MCH, the only things I didn't use were Spread/Grenado Shot, and even then there were odd occasions I could use them. You mention a semi-gimped PvP kit, yet each job then had PvP skills tailored to them, unlike what we have now: an optional sprint. Safeguard: a weak tank cooldown for all. Concentrate: a weaker Fetter Ward for all. Muse: a weak MP refresh for all, especially now that BRD and MCH can't restore MP anymore. . . See the trend there?

Once again 3.5 brought the uniform length reduction and standardization of all CC skills, which was actually a major improvement, especially with the diminshing returns of that time. Sure, a PLD could stun lock you, but if that was his one trick and he kept doing it, soon enough, it wouldn't work at all for the next minute. Now, length/duration of CC skills are so pathetically low, with an immediate immunity triggered after it (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing, if the length of the actual effect weren't so short) is so laughably minor that it does little to actually benefit players. And that's assuming they're playing a job that even has them. Sorry DRG, MNK, and SAM.

Half the pvp abilities themselves were useless. A lot of point blank aoes, if I remember. Most had two abilities offensively, then everyone picked the same defensive ones per role. If anything, getting rid of MP refresh was a good move, and TP refresh was useless in PvP once they made sprint not take TP.

Keep in mind 3.5 was the end of the expansion cycle, and till then we saw really nasty use of CC and really sucky balance. You're kind of pointing to the time when they finally fixed a lot of the problems of HW, and even then, they really struggled to get people into Feast. I'm rehashing this only for context in this thread.

And honestly, if it wasn't nostalgia, we should have not seen Feast empty out, nor should pvp have gone through the same boom and busy cycles then as it did now. It's not like it was even filled in 3.0 any greater than now.

[Akor]

snip

SMN would like to disagree with this a whole a lot. Even after the "nerfs" they still was king of the FL. After that BLM who still used they thunder/Thundercloud alot which still was one of the highest single target dmg+DoT. BRD was the same, they dots give alot of dmg and it was more usefull than u think they was, even now they are. We can argue w/e on melees it was usefull or not, but it was still nice to do add dots on them.

Killing ppl with lb was the most effective way.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The gutted stuff is bull, PvP back in 3.0 was a big pain in the butt for most players, since the PvE kit was so unsuited to anything but stationary, huge HP bosses it wasn't funny. You ignored most of the PvE kit and worked together a weird, semi-gimped PvP kit out of the remains. That PvP was mostly about CC and burst if not one-shotting through timed use of Limit breaks, and over 3.0 they kept nerfing those actions because they legitimately were not fun.

People are complaining not because it was legitimately better, but because of nostalgia goggles. Might as well complain about how not needing to aply 2-3 Dots for every class was removed in HW, or how BLM is arguably worse since they aren't on 3.0's original strict enochian timer.

It was a pain in the butt for most players who didn't make an effort to learn how to play and play well, much like any Extreme or Savage content would be for anyone who doesn't attempt to learn it. The old kits - and we've debated this many times now - natively had skills that proved to be highly effective in PvP where they were otherwise unused in PvE. I can't speak for most other jobs, but for MCH, the only things I didn't use were Spread/Grenado Shot, and even then there were odd occasions I could use them. You mention a semi-gimped PvP kit, yet each job then had PvP skills tailored to them, unlike what we have now: an optional sprint. Safeguard: a weak tank cooldown for all. Concentrate: a weaker Fetter Ward for all. Muse: a weak MP refresh for all, especially now that BRD and MCH can't restore MP anymore. . . See the trend there?

Once again 3.5 brought the uniform length reduction and standardization of all CC skills, which was actually a major improvement, especially with the diminshing returns of that time. Sure, a PLD could stun lock you, but if that was his one trick and he kept doing it, soon enough, it wouldn't work at all for the next minute. Now, length/duration of CC skills are so pathetically low, with an immediate immunity triggered after it (which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing, if the length of the actual effect weren't so short) is so laughably minor that it does little to actually benefit players. And that's assuming they're playing a job that even has them. Sorry DRG, MNK, and SAM.

This isn't nostalgia, and please stop trying to trivialize it as such. As it stands, unless you're a NIN, it's a bad time to be a melee. Healers are better tanks than Tanks are, and can cast faster, literally outheal any single hit or full combo, even before instant cast abilities come into play, and there's literally more imbalance now in this "fixed", "foundation" system that they don't even know HOW to build upon, let alone have yet to. But hey, leave it to SE to find something that works and somehow make it worse while trying to make people believe it's better.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

People are complaining not because it was legitimately better, but because of nostalgia goggles. Might as well complain about how not needing to aply 2-3 Dots for every class was removed in HW, or how BLM is arguably worse since they aren't on 3.0's original strict enochian timer.

We have been over this ad nauseam. You needs stop speaking in absolutes. It does nothing for your arguments except make them appear narrow-minded.

I am someone who actually agreed with the initial PvP overhaul when I assumed it was intended more to consolidated unnecessary abilities and split them all away from PvE for easier balance purposes. What they actually did was, indeed, a gut job. Gone are virtually all crowd control abilities, which was among my favorite activities on healers. I much preferred not contributing any DPS and stun and cast locking people as it added a strategic element unique to PvP. Now I have no AoE heals, no CC and am hilariously overpowered because healing was "too hard" in 3.0. Their excuse? "No one would play healers!" Yeah, now everyone plays them. It's beyond absurd I can heal through four melee trying to grind me into dust. And it's equally depressing when they give up knowing I'll never die unless I mess up.

All they needed to do was trim some fat, not reduce our abilities to what, nine? Hell, add just a couple of CCs back and I could grow to like this current system. But no, it's not nostalgia that makes it less engaging. I wasn't a huge PvPer to begin with. I simply preferred what we had before.

[VanilleFang]

Healers in pvp

Yeah I don't PvP much but when I do I go in as WHM and.. Seriously I was a bit confused. Why, as a healer, can I tank hits better than the tanks? Oh no you are going to attack me *Divine Benison*. Oh no DB wore off... *Protect*. Oh, 10s have passed and Protect is gone... *Safeguard*. Oh shit you almost killed me! *Benediction*. It's been 20s! *Divine Benison*