What jobs are we hoping to see in the next expansion?

[loreleidiangelo]

So since alot of people like to make comparisons to XI (for good or bad or just neutral), alloow me one: The second expansion to FFXI, Chains of Promathia, added no new jobs. It had plenty of other things, including to what I have read/heard the longest (and possibly best) story and for a time was also one of the most difficult pieces of content to do.

Plenty of WoW expansions also don't add new jobs, and, for better or for worse depending on who you ask, most of their jobs are given pretty big overhauls with every expansion. Love 'em or hate 'em, artifact weapons in WoW were basically several levels' worth of talents/upgrades in 10 levels of content with a well-defined progression tier, and it's not like Legion suffered for content either (they literally added Argus, three pretty massive zones, in a single patch). Yes, Blizz has dolla-dollas to throw around on stuff like this, but it's absolutely possible to just focus on improving what we have in the frame of new content rather than dangling potentially busted shinies in front of us in the hopes that we forget we're getting less dungeons and shorter MSQs every patch cycle.

[kikix12]

? Have you never played expansions in other games? The class is changed at the base level, not just for people who buy the expac, are you trolling? Also, nowhere did anyone say "Also don't add new content", we said "don't add new jobs, work on fixing some old ones". Your reading comprehension is really lacking, tbh.

Funny that you say that my reading comprehension is lacking, when you clearly can't understand a single basic phrase...

So just for you, a special crash course in reading, starting from the most obvious.

Yeah, I'd pretty much be happy with a new extension that pretty much just takes the game from where it's at, and make it better. No new zone, no new job, just revamped the fundamentals of it, so it can actually get cleansed from all the 1.0 stains still left.

Extension was used in place of expansion with 99% certainty. Otherwise it would be kind of pointless to mention it.
And there you have it. Someone that said that they want a new expansion that does not add anything at all, not restricted to just jobs. Yay for reading...

Now, further.

? Have you never played expansions in other games? The class is changed at the base level, not just for people who buy the expac(...)

Expansions are basically a whole new game. An expansion that does nothing but modify the existing content is not possible. That's called an update, and updates come free of charge. They would not spend two or so years working on something that they can't get an ounce of extra money from all at once(...)

Or do you want to tell me how do you imaging a party at a trial roulette ifrit with two astrologians, each having different skill sets from each other just cause one bought the expansion and the other did not?! Or do you want them to make that expansion mandatory and lose a big chunk of people for openly lousy business practices?!

Here is a little bit higher level of reading.

First paragraph explains the difference between an expansion (paid) and update (free), since that is relevant in the discussion (bolded text). It is also saying why a change that does not add anything new cannot be an expansion (italic text).

Second paragraph explains in depth why first paragraph is true. The problem caused by building an expansion solely on changing existing systems (italic text) and the source of that problem (bolded text).

In other words, I know how class changes work. And BECAUSE I know how they work, I could point an error in logic made by another poster, as well as explain to him why he made a mistake there. If you have read anything else out of it...well, learn to read. Ideally before you accuse others of lacking reading comprehension.

On that note, my responses grow or stop being hostile depending on the posts I respond to. If you want to complain, then reread your own post and guess what made me respond in such a manner.

As for your final point, of course it's not necessary to skip new jobs to "fix" old ones, but SE so far hasn't seemed that willing to expend the budget necessary to make major sweeping changes in just patches(...)

1) It is not the consumers problem that the business does not care for investing in their product to fix it in a timely manner.
2) It doesnt matter, since if you have limited budget, you spread it out accordingly. Instead of doing lot of smaller things in frequent patches, many of which are mostly irrelevant to most players, they could push slightly actual updates for a bit longer (other than main story and related instances), and so saved time and budget spend on doing the sweep over a longer period. Players will be happier if their jobs won't be changed every other month as well. They won't achieve proper state with lots of band-aids, some of which mess up more than they fix and needing a band-aid of their own. If they won't get fixed anyway, let the players trudge through it for a while longer. The balance is better than it was in heavensward supposedly, so it should be no problem to refocus attention on long-term changes, right?!

(...)and since new jobs ABSOLUTELY have balance ramifications for older jobs I do believe its better to do major reworks for old jobs without throwing new ones in the mix.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Classes are balanced more around the content than other classes. They have a specific aim for what healers need to be able to heal, tank mitigate and DPS deal damage. How they do it doesn't matter at all. Ultimately, math trumps all. That's the whole reason for this darned homogenization they are aiming for with gear and what not, to guarantee that everyone will have the same relative performance.

It does not matter whether black mage deals more burst or more over-time damage than red mage. What matters is that it qualifies for its own set of work and have something extra to compensate for lack of healing/revival utility. You don't need to finish balancing the other classes if you aim to bring them to the same level as what you design the new class around. You just need to set a proper goal and make sure it is met. And contrary. Lack of new class is not enough to make balancing the other jobs easier, since they are irrelevant.

Need proof?! There was no tank and healer in Stormblood, the reason cited "focusing on balancing the tanks and healers". Basically what you said. The result?! There were more job updates in Stormblood than there were in Heavensward in the time I played them. Also, developers claim the tanks and healers are pretty balanced. The percentages from FFLogs, at least at some point, did concur with that (especially for healers). Players still say they are not balanced. And they still keep changing em.

So, how long do you want them to withhold new tank/healer jobs for balancing, while spitting out DPS that by some miraculous way supposedly don't need it?! Perfect balance does not exist...unless every class is exactly the same. So yeah...Now's a good time to add tank and healer since right now the classes can at least do reasonably well regardless of which you choose, provided you know how to play them. Enough so that the jobs lore and play style may be appealing enough to trump over the performance mismatch.

So since alot of people like to make comparisons to XI (for good or bad or just neutral), alloow me one: The second expansion to FFXI, Chains of Promathia, added no new jobs. It had plenty of other things, including to what I have read/heard the longest (and possibly best) story and for a time was also one of the most difficult pieces of content to do.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what you were aiming for with that post. I never said that they need to release new jobs or the like. I said that due to the system in FFXIV, players have far greater expectations for doing that than in games without job-switching.

Yes, XI had even more advanced job-based system. But how is that relevant?! They decided not to implement any new jobs. Doesn't change the fact that players probably expected new jobs if previous expansions did bring them. I never played nor read about Final Fantasy XI so I don't know about its history and expansions, nor how many expansions were before or after the one you mentioned. And those matter as well. I don't know how many classes there were, nor how the battle system worked there. I know there were non-tank classes tanking from the posts around, so it was not so limited for fans of a single play style, and that already is a lot different from this game.

[MageBlack]

A shorter way to put all that, SE reworked the combat system from 1.0 to 2.0, i doubt we will see that level of rework again. Stormblood had a "rework" of jobs but this was mostly a quality of life adjustment to deal with ability bloat (regular MMO maintenance) and some UI additions to make it easier, visually, to understand the nuances of each job. The UI addition didnt actually change any functionality, just made it clearer.

As far as "expansions doing nothing but modifying existing content" I would say thats not entirely true. Astrogalos, Ninja, Eureka, Diadem, PotD, MSQ, among others were added in a patch (free) and I wouldnt consider those just modifying existing content. If you DO consider that modifying existing content, then Stormblood is just a patch since nothing changed, just new zones and more MSQ and two new jobs (all of those have been in patches too). Also of note, all those UI and combat reworks, even though they were a "part" of stormblood they were implemented across all expansions. Just look at the Patch notes to see what is changed for whom.

[winsock]

I'd like to see an XIV take on Templar/Defender as a new tank. Heavy Lance/shield, war cry for AoE threat, something along those lines.

[kikix12]

As far as "expansions doing nothing but modifying existing content" I would say thats not entirely true. Astrogalos, Ninja, Eureka, Diadem, PotD, MSQ, among others were added in a patch (free) and I wouldnt consider those just modifying existing content.

Of course they're not modifying existing content...What I said is that expansions cannot be based only on modifying existing content. I never said anything at all about regular updates, other than they are free and thus can be entirely changes to what's currently.

Honestly, how many times must I say the same thing again, just using different words, for people to stop trying to read between the lines when there's nothing there (and thus making stuff up).

Also of note, all those UI and combat reworks, even though they were a "part" of stormblood they were implemented across all expansions. Just look at the Patch notes to see what is changed for whom.

I'm sorry, but I made a large wall of text explaining why you writing what you write is wrong since you did not read carefully enough. Please, just reread the above.

[MageBlack]

Sorry, i guess I cant even agree with you without getting jumped on.

[kikix12]

Hm?! I'm not sure I follow. I don't really see agreeing (or specifically disagreeing, to be fair) with me.

That being said, sorry if it seemed as me "jumping" on you. It was not meant to be that. I just see in your post (rereading it second time) similar things that I do in what loreleidiangelo wrote, and hence my response would be the same. Except for the hostility.

[MageBlack]

Thing is you two arent too far off each other in regards to this argument.

loreleidiangelo
To be fair, trending too much towards "fixing" old stuff also isn't a great sell for an expansion, either.

All they were really saying is it wouldnt be the end of Eorzea if they chose to forgo adding in a new job in favor of a combat rework. Because, realistically, to get actual uniqueness for your jobs, the current homogenization system would need to be reworked from the ground up. There are other aspects to content and an expansion beyond adding a new job. Honestly, as much as I would love a new Tank job, I know it will boil down to being another skin for the role. With the corner that SE painted themselves into trying to make everything fair and even, the opportunity for anything truly unique is squashed before it even comes to be.

I did disagree on the part you had said about expansion (paid) vs patch (free) and pointed out some examples. What really sets the two apart is the amount of content. When a patch releases, it can be fully completed in a week, even casually, but an expansion has enough content to last a month or more (casually).

I was only trying to sum things up without the vitriol but i realize now I should have just kept my nose out of this whole thing. Sorry for making the situation worse.

[kikix12]

Thing is you two arent too far off each other in regards to this argument.

Really, the part of my post that escalated like this was directed at the post that ArcaviusGreyashe wrote. I guess I should have just used a quote, but I didn't think it necessary since I didn't think that someone would skip over what he wrote and then think I responded to them. Though then I'd have to look for multiple quotes for the second part, since those were directed at a more general crowd...

All they were really saying is it wouldnt be the end of Eorzea if they chose to forgo adding in a new job in favor of a combat rework.

Well, that's kind of part of a problem. I never really said anything about that. I merely gave a reason as to why players in this game want new jobs so frequently when other games do so rarely, if ever.

Because, realistically, to get actual uniqueness for your jobs, the current homogenization system would need to be reworked from the ground up. There are other aspects to content and an expansion beyond adding a new job. Honestly, as much as I would love a new Tank job, I know it will boil down to being another skin for the role.

Yes, I know. However, DPS have nine jobs with three distinct styles (ranged, melee, caster). Even if they did feel mostly the same (which they don't in my opinion, mind you, even if they do the same thing), a player would still have three times the classes to play with and level and their personal identities, no matter how small or large, would add to the games longevity for that player.
However, as healers or tanks, you have only three classes. In case of healers, they are far too similar to each other at the basic levels (though still Scholar and White Mage have their own quirks...Astrologian just steals em and adds cards, until the stormblood skills). A player that is currently playing have only three classes to try their hands at. And every one that they won't like due to the quirks (small or large, doesn't matter here) is a massive reduction, unlike for DPS.

Even if they were aiming to reduce the similarities and give more identity to the classes, the time it would take would matter little. The change would hit...and what?! The players with those classes at 70 will still have nothing to level, will just need to relearn the old ones. They may be less boring, yes, but there's still a large chunk of content "lost" for the player (or rather, not gained). Now, such a rework actually is equivalent to making a whole new class from scratch, except for the general concept. But everything that really takes time, making the skills, balancing them, needs to be done the same as for new class. And almost the same amount of effort (from a programmers point of view) gives less potential play time.

That is why I believe that they should be working on the identities of the current classes, while making new ones. Ideally in my opinion there would be as many DPS classes as the sum of tanks and healers (so 5 tanks, 5 healers and 10 damage dealers). Not because it may help with the queues or whatever. To give players that like this particular play style a wider selection, just like DPS have.

I do not think it is out of Squares reach (or their budget), and to be frank, there are far more ideas than needed that could be used for making them unique. So that's not a problem. The problem is Square and their unwillingness to see the problem within homogenization of classes (surprisingly...well, not really...this problem is a non-issue for DPS). But that's not something players have any effect on.

I did disagree on the part you had said about expansion (paid) vs patch (free) and pointed out some examples. What really sets the two apart is the amount of content. When a patch releases, it can be fully completed in a week, even casually, but an expansion has enough content to last a month or more (casually).

Well, the expansions are still released as a separate add-on to the game, thus are paid, while the updates are being released for free. The amount of content is another difference, but not the only one. And I just didn't really need to bring it up in this discussion since it served no purpose.

I was only trying to sum things up without the vitriol but i realize now I should have just kept my nose out of this whole thing. Sorry for making the situation worse.

Nah, you didn't make it worse. Well, not as far as I am interested. I'm actually glad to have been able to respond to someone three times and be able to write something entirely different in each of them. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant here. And mistakes happen. It's how they are accompanied that puts a shade (or not) on the discussion.

[MageBlack]

Really, the part of my post that escalated like this was directed at the post that ArcaviusGreyashe wrote. I guess I should have just used a quote, but I didn't think it necessary since I didn't think that someone would skip over what he wrote and then think I responded to them. Though then I'd have to look for multiple quotes for the second part, since those were directed at a more general crowd...

Yeah, people tend to see what they want to see and can only interpret on the level that they understand. Admittedly I did the same thing and should have broken down my first response and taken the time to articulate properly.

Well, that's kind of part of a problem. I never really said anything about that. I merely gave a reason as to why players in this game want new jobs so frequently when other games do so rarely, if ever.

Yes, I know. However, DPS have nine jobs with three distinct styles (ranged, melee, caster). Even if they did feel mostly the same (which they don't in my opinion, mind you, even if they do the same thing), a player would still have three times the classes to play with and level and their personal identities, no matter how small or large, would add to the games longevity for that player.

I can see your point and I have argued the same before as well. In FFXI the balancing and jobs were a much different beast mostly because of the sub job system (which I loved and missed from 1.0) that was a great way to have uniqueness. IIRC their fear with 14 is lack of balance and fairness and making sure other players know what they are getting when they see a WHM or WAR in their party instead of wondering if they spec'ed "properly". Unfortunately taking this too far leads to its own host of issues. So adding more jobs helps keep things fresh since we dont have branching specs or real choice within a job for shaking things up.

However, as healers or tanks, you have only three classes. In case of healers, they are far too similar to each other at the basic levels (though still Scholar and White Mage have their own quirks...Astrologian just steals em and adds cards, until the stormblood skills). A player that is currently playing have only three classes to try their hands at. And every one that they won't like due to the quirks (small or large, doesn't matter here) is a massive reduction, unlike for DPS.

That is why I believe that they should be working on the identities of the current classes, while making new ones. Ideally in my opinion there would be as many DPS classes as the sum of tanks and healers (so 5 tanks, 5 healers and 10 damage dealers). Not because it may help with the queues or whatever. To give players that like this particular play style a wider selection, just like DPS have.

I think something that would go a long way to helping with that uniqueness of the class would be to have a lot more Job specific gear rather than Role specific gear. Sure its superficial but when all tanks wear the same armor (glamor not withstanding) it really kills the special feeling. I know i was really disappointed when they changes that in the PvP gear. For the first few infusions of gear it was by job, then they got lazy. Like, even the two new jobs only got a single unique piece out of it at all. That really sucked. I mean, the weapon is the only thing that CANT be the same and its by design, otherwise I'm sure that would be Role based too...

Even if they were aiming to reduce the similarities and give more identity to the classes, the time it would take would matter little. The change would hit...and what?! The players with those classes at 70 will still have nothing to level, will just need to relearn the old ones. They may be less boring, yes, but there's still a large chunk of content "lost" for the player (or rather, not gained). Now, such a rework actually is equivalent to making a whole new class from scratch, except for the general concept. But everything that really takes time, making the skills, balancing them, needs to be done the same as for new class. And almost the same amount of effort (from a programmers point of view) gives less potential play time.

Thats another great reason SE will never make sweeping changes to their Job system, it would really screw over the community. At least when they did it from 1.0 to 2.0 there were very few people it would affect. I remember lots of complaining of bordom from those people once 2.0 dropped since their levels were capped, they really did have little to work towards. it was mostly just unlock the shit they should have had already, learn it, then enter the cycle of content we have come to expect since.

I do not think it is out of Squares reach (or their budget), and to be frank, there are far more ideas than needed that could be used for making them unique. So that's not a problem. The problem is Square and their unwillingness to see the problem within homogenization of classes (surprisingly...well, not really...this problem is a non-issue for DPS). But that's not something players have any effect on.

Its hard to really identify where the "problem" really lies;
- is it western thinking and the japanese base is quite happy?
- is it corporate shareholders strangling the devs to make "safe" content
- is it the initial success going to their head "if it aint broke, dont fix it"
- is it corporate seeing their attempts at shaking things up fail that makes them gun-shy? (Diadem, LoV, 1.0)
- is it a divided fanbase sending mixed messages? (Make hard content!) (This content is too hard, nerf it!)
- is it a combination of these or all of these and more?

I think the best we can hope for getting any uniqueness will be in the sub systems and extra content they release, like Eureka and PvP. Where its a contained portion of the game and something easier to control and monitor. SE likes their control.

Well, the expansions are still released as a separate add-on to the game, thus are paid, while the updates are being released for free. The amount of content is another difference, but not the only one. And I just didn't really need to bring it up in this discussion since it served no purpose.

Yeah, i think i was really just arguing semantics at that point. I seem to recall Yoshi-P referring to expansions as Seasons in your favorite TV show. So far, I feel each expansion has lived up to the philosophy. I think what I was trying to bring to the table with my comment was, even if SE doesnt like it, they have the ability to add a job in part way through an expansion, or a new zone, or completely new system.

Nah, you didn't make it worse. Well, not as far as I am interested. I'm actually glad to have been able to respond to someone three times and be able to write something entirely different in each of them. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant here. And mistakes happen. It's how they are accompanied that puts a shade (or not) on the discussion.

To be fair, they kinda gave you the vitriol first and that initiated the self defense mechanism. I recognize it cause its happened to me more often than I would care to admit. I try to keep my smartass comments out of a post but somehow something always seems to slip, lol. I suck...