What jobs are we hoping to see in the next expansion?

[kikix12]

Thing is you two arent too far off each other in regards to this argument.

Really, the part of my post that escalated like this was directed at the post that ArcaviusGreyashe wrote. I guess I should have just used a quote, but I didn't think it necessary since I didn't think that someone would skip over what he wrote and then think I responded to them. Though then I'd have to look for multiple quotes for the second part, since those were directed at a more general crowd...

All they were really saying is it wouldnt be the end of Eorzea if they chose to forgo adding in a new job in favor of a combat rework.

Well, that's kind of part of a problem. I never really said anything about that. I merely gave a reason as to why players in this game want new jobs so frequently when other games do so rarely, if ever.

Because, realistically, to get actual uniqueness for your jobs, the current homogenization system would need to be reworked from the ground up. There are other aspects to content and an expansion beyond adding a new job. Honestly, as much as I would love a new Tank job, I know it will boil down to being another skin for the role.

Yes, I know. However, DPS have nine jobs with three distinct styles (ranged, melee, caster). Even if they did feel mostly the same (which they don't in my opinion, mind you, even if they do the same thing), a player would still have three times the classes to play with and level and their personal identities, no matter how small or large, would add to the games longevity for that player.
However, as healers or tanks, you have only three classes. In case of healers, they are far too similar to each other at the basic levels (though still Scholar and White Mage have their own quirks...Astrologian just steals em and adds cards, until the stormblood skills). A player that is currently playing have only three classes to try their hands at. And every one that they won't like due to the quirks (small or large, doesn't matter here) is a massive reduction, unlike for DPS.

Even if they were aiming to reduce the similarities and give more identity to the classes, the time it would take would matter little. The change would hit...and what?! The players with those classes at 70 will still have nothing to level, will just need to relearn the old ones. They may be less boring, yes, but there's still a large chunk of content "lost" for the player (or rather, not gained). Now, such a rework actually is equivalent to making a whole new class from scratch, except for the general concept. But everything that really takes time, making the skills, balancing them, needs to be done the same as for new class. And almost the same amount of effort (from a programmers point of view) gives less potential play time.

That is why I believe that they should be working on the identities of the current classes, while making new ones. Ideally in my opinion there would be as many DPS classes as the sum of tanks and healers (so 5 tanks, 5 healers and 10 damage dealers). Not because it may help with the queues or whatever. To give players that like this particular play style a wider selection, just like DPS have.

I do not think it is out of Squares reach (or their budget), and to be frank, there are far more ideas than needed that could be used for making them unique. So that's not a problem. The problem is Square and their unwillingness to see the problem within homogenization of classes (surprisingly...well, not really...this problem is a non-issue for DPS). But that's not something players have any effect on.

I did disagree on the part you had said about expansion (paid) vs patch (free) and pointed out some examples. What really sets the two apart is the amount of content. When a patch releases, it can be fully completed in a week, even casually, but an expansion has enough content to last a month or more (casually).

Well, the expansions are still released as a separate add-on to the game, thus are paid, while the updates are being released for free. The amount of content is another difference, but not the only one. And I just didn't really need to bring it up in this discussion since it served no purpose.

I was only trying to sum things up without the vitriol but i realize now I should have just kept my nose out of this whole thing. Sorry for making the situation worse.

Nah, you didn't make it worse. Well, not as far as I am interested. I'm actually glad to have been able to respond to someone three times and be able to write something entirely different in each of them. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant here. And mistakes happen. It's how they are accompanied that puts a shade (or not) on the discussion.

[MageBlack]

Really, the part of my post that escalated like this was directed at the post that ArcaviusGreyashe wrote. I guess I should have just used a quote, but I didn't think it necessary since I didn't think that someone would skip over what he wrote and then think I responded to them. Though then I'd have to look for multiple quotes for the second part, since those were directed at a more general crowd...

Yeah, people tend to see what they want to see and can only interpret on the level that they understand. Admittedly I did the same thing and should have broken down my first response and taken the time to articulate properly.

Well, that's kind of part of a problem. I never really said anything about that. I merely gave a reason as to why players in this game want new jobs so frequently when other games do so rarely, if ever.

Yes, I know. However, DPS have nine jobs with three distinct styles (ranged, melee, caster). Even if they did feel mostly the same (which they don't in my opinion, mind you, even if they do the same thing), a player would still have three times the classes to play with and level and their personal identities, no matter how small or large, would add to the games longevity for that player.

I can see your point and I have argued the same before as well. In FFXI the balancing and jobs were a much different beast mostly because of the sub job system (which I loved and missed from 1.0) that was a great way to have uniqueness. IIRC their fear with 14 is lack of balance and fairness and making sure other players know what they are getting when they see a WHM or WAR in their party instead of wondering if they spec'ed "properly". Unfortunately taking this too far leads to its own host of issues. So adding more jobs helps keep things fresh since we dont have branching specs or real choice within a job for shaking things up.

However, as healers or tanks, you have only three classes. In case of healers, they are far too similar to each other at the basic levels (though still Scholar and White Mage have their own quirks...Astrologian just steals em and adds cards, until the stormblood skills). A player that is currently playing have only three classes to try their hands at. And every one that they won't like due to the quirks (small or large, doesn't matter here) is a massive reduction, unlike for DPS.

That is why I believe that they should be working on the identities of the current classes, while making new ones. Ideally in my opinion there would be as many DPS classes as the sum of tanks and healers (so 5 tanks, 5 healers and 10 damage dealers). Not because it may help with the queues or whatever. To give players that like this particular play style a wider selection, just like DPS have.

I think something that would go a long way to helping with that uniqueness of the class would be to have a lot more Job specific gear rather than Role specific gear. Sure its superficial but when all tanks wear the same armor (glamor not withstanding) it really kills the special feeling. I know i was really disappointed when they changes that in the PvP gear. For the first few infusions of gear it was by job, then they got lazy. Like, even the two new jobs only got a single unique piece out of it at all. That really sucked. I mean, the weapon is the only thing that CANT be the same and its by design, otherwise I'm sure that would be Role based too...

Even if they were aiming to reduce the similarities and give more identity to the classes, the time it would take would matter little. The change would hit...and what?! The players with those classes at 70 will still have nothing to level, will just need to relearn the old ones. They may be less boring, yes, but there's still a large chunk of content "lost" for the player (or rather, not gained). Now, such a rework actually is equivalent to making a whole new class from scratch, except for the general concept. But everything that really takes time, making the skills, balancing them, needs to be done the same as for new class. And almost the same amount of effort (from a programmers point of view) gives less potential play time.

Thats another great reason SE will never make sweeping changes to their Job system, it would really screw over the community. At least when they did it from 1.0 to 2.0 there were very few people it would affect. I remember lots of complaining of bordom from those people once 2.0 dropped since their levels were capped, they really did have little to work towards. it was mostly just unlock the shit they should have had already, learn it, then enter the cycle of content we have come to expect since.

I do not think it is out of Squares reach (or their budget), and to be frank, there are far more ideas than needed that could be used for making them unique. So that's not a problem. The problem is Square and their unwillingness to see the problem within homogenization of classes (surprisingly...well, not really...this problem is a non-issue for DPS). But that's not something players have any effect on.

Its hard to really identify where the "problem" really lies;
- is it western thinking and the japanese base is quite happy?
- is it corporate shareholders strangling the devs to make "safe" content
- is it the initial success going to their head "if it aint broke, dont fix it"
- is it corporate seeing their attempts at shaking things up fail that makes them gun-shy? (Diadem, LoV, 1.0)
- is it a divided fanbase sending mixed messages? (Make hard content!) (This content is too hard, nerf it!)
- is it a combination of these or all of these and more?

I think the best we can hope for getting any uniqueness will be in the sub systems and extra content they release, like Eureka and PvP. Where its a contained portion of the game and something easier to control and monitor. SE likes their control.

Well, the expansions are still released as a separate add-on to the game, thus are paid, while the updates are being released for free. The amount of content is another difference, but not the only one. And I just didn't really need to bring it up in this discussion since it served no purpose.

Yeah, i think i was really just arguing semantics at that point. I seem to recall Yoshi-P referring to expansions as Seasons in your favorite TV show. So far, I feel each expansion has lived up to the philosophy. I think what I was trying to bring to the table with my comment was, even if SE doesnt like it, they have the ability to add a job in part way through an expansion, or a new zone, or completely new system.

Nah, you didn't make it worse. Well, not as far as I am interested. I'm actually glad to have been able to respond to someone three times and be able to write something entirely different in each of them. Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant here. And mistakes happen. It's how they are accompanied that puts a shade (or not) on the discussion.

To be fair, they kinda gave you the vitriol first and that initiated the self defense mechanism. I recognize it cause its happened to me more often than I would care to admit. I try to keep my smartass comments out of a post but somehow something always seems to slip, lol. I suck...

[kikix12]

- is it corporate seeing their attempts at shaking things up fail that makes them gun-shy? (Diadem, LoV, 1.0)

Well, to be fair, Diadem (at least its second incarnation) was just doing specific amount of FATE's with some giving more and some less points. And this community really hates FATE's. It simply could not have worked when the basis for it was the thing that players hate before it even came.
Second was how horrible was the reward system. I went there maybe ten times, and got some piece of gear only twice or thrice. I'm not talking about its randomness. That was fine, would make for an incentive to continue doing it. But the fact that I just did not get any at all made me think the run was pretty much wasted. If there was at least one gear piece guaranteed, I think it'd be more valuable.

As for Vermilion...honestly, my only guess is that adding a mini-game that is so far away from the concept of an RPG is the problem here. And the mechanics. When I do it just for those 10 000 MGP, I do that first boss challenge which is fast. And even then I'm irritated at the game. I order my minions to attack him, but they go past him, as if I ordered them to move to the place he was at. If I tell them to attack, they should automatically go after that guy until I changed the order or either them or he is dead. That's the point of "attack" command, right?! Why does the pointer even change to a sword if its effect is the same?!
But from what I heard, players wanted to have something to do with minions, and that was the answer. But players wanted RPG-style battles. Something akin to pokemon, digimon, monster rancher and similar. This couldn't have been any further from that.

So in these cases, the developers literally asked for failure. You don't go up to a man asking for fashion ideas offering him a sexy bra, a tank-top with large cleavage and a mini-skirt. Being told off is the best that could happen to you. And Square Enix did pretty much that.

I mean, I enjoy playing healers as much as the next person, but the whole point of having different jobs in one role is to have different aesthetics, but pretty much all the healers scream "GRIL ONLY", perhaps the only healer that can be pulled off by a male character is Scholar, but even then, the "poster" character for WHM is a female Lalafell, for SCH it's a female Elezen and for AST it's a female Au Ra. But no surprise with AST, 90% of the animations on that are feminine af.

I'm afraid that the aesthetic issue is born from real life. Go to a shop that sells fashion and look at what is offered to men. You may find maybe three types of pants, three types of long-sleeved shirts/hoodies and one or two types of short-sleeved shirts. Everything else different about them would be the colors, materials and prints.

Now, go to a womans part. You've got variety galore. Dresses with cuts here, with cuts there, without cuts. With or without cleavage. Long, short and anywhere in-between. Slim and loose, elastic and freeflowing.

Part of that is because of how people define "masculine". In peoples mind, there is one thing masculine, one thing neutral and everything else if feminine. Of course, this is a slight overexaggeration, but not as large as it seems.

For example, blue or pink, which is feminine?! Grandmas of the current young adults probably would buy blue clothes when hoping for a girl to be born and pink if it was a boy. Currently, the reverse is true and 'gals' that aim to be girly are covering themselves in pink from head to toes. A man that would put on a pink sweater would be laughed at (by those more vocal)...but funny thing?! A girl that would put on a blue sweater could very well be praised for her feminine appearance.
A man in skirt?! Laughed at and humiliated (unless in Scotland and wearing a kilt). A woman in pants?! Perfectly normal in all cases.

So, can you now see the problem?! Designing for women is much easier, cause you can do literally anything and it will STILL be 'feminine enough'. But the slightest variation from what is considered masculine when designed for men and it will be mocked. As a result...don't expect a variety in appearance of gear. What we're left with is asking for more cool designs and less ridiculous ones (a roman-styled breastplate with a 'six-pack' on the chest?! Really?!). That'd already help and is actually reasonable.