I miss the old PvP.

[Mofafafa]

I don't really like singling people out, but this bothered me more than it should have. This is a terrible mindset to have and I encourage everyone to not have the "You didn't experience it, so you can't say anything about it" attitude because it does not promote discussion and seems like a way to shut someone's input out with minimal consequences. This also seems like it could grow over time into a "you didn't play x season, so you wouldn't know what high-level gameplay is because you only played y season" mentality, which is not very healthy. People can watch older gameplay and judge from what they see whether something was team-oriented or not.[/SIZE]

This is somewhat both party fault as, winter is being really straight forward without holding back.But, seeing crit argument that he only bring in a clip while he doesn't participate/played in 3.0 PvP, he is deliberating trying to claim 4.0 PvP is superior with just 1 single clip as his source to prove his statement.


That's what we've trying to say, many people only judge by the rumors and what other people says and was given impression that 3.0 PvP is bad.

Basically I agree what you said in your following statement, that SE is trying to capitalize their source of income by making it attractive to major player.

About crit tho, he was starting to throw bad attitude in which he got responded with such because he doesn't understand the concept of discussion and he start throwing insults such as *frontline plebs* on his very first few post

The concept of coordinating was very basic back in 3.0 PvP with burst target in JP DC, in which in NA/EU region doesn't adapt to this during that time.

The number 1 Healer in NA, came into Mana and Elemental DC and participate the Feast season during 5 and 6, he reached top 10? *i assume* but he deleted his character in both DC when he doesn't reach rank 1 by the end of the season.
He got destroyed very hard with JP DC coordination and some of my friend in Elemental doesn't really liked playing with him in their team. This healer on 50% of his game usually get blown up within 1 minute of the game if he isn't prepared for the opponent *GOOD DPS* and end up having the game ended after that. ( you can watch his twitch's VOD history, if he still saves it )

So crit's statement is very much debatable.

What i think about the complaint about button combo change is fine, but it kills another way of *misdirection* psychological gameplay imo.

I'm not gonna be the one to sit here and say he did or didn't reach top 100 legitimately, but I CAN say that, 1: Top 100 really isn't an accurate measure of a player's skill, and 2: Top 100 in 4.x PvP is even less an accurate measurement. Especially given the changes to scoring, rules and features of the mode, as well as the depth (or lack thereof) of the system.

This statement is very much true, I know some player skill isn't on par with the good one but their *DETERMINATION* to *GRIND* everyday is what makes them reach top 100, so do not judge top 100 = SUPER SKILLFUL WOW. Its like comparing a 60 ~ 90+% winrate to a 30 ~ 50% winrate players, if you get what i mean, Crit... top 100 =/= skillful

I know some player that is very well respected in PvP community doesn't participate in 4.0 PvP but those people still getting asked to join the 4.0 Party Feast PvP Team, currently top 10 players in Elemental asked him to join their team but he refused because 4.0 PvP doesn't entertain him.

[aeoncs]

Who t f are you???

Excuse me, first off Crit wasn't lucky to get Top 100, he earned that fair and square.

Second of all, your brain can't even comprehend the amount of experience Crit has in TEAM ORIENTED PVP. Not only does he scrim, but he was apart of Aether league. If anyone has a decent opinion on what ACTUALLY IS TEAM ORIENTED PLAY, It's Crit, not you.

I get sticking up for a friend, but that was kinda intense.

I didn't say he was lucky to get Top 100 or that he didn't earn it, I said that he did get Top 100 with a <50% winrate in 4.X, which is true. I also said that he's talking out of his a**, making ignorant assumptions about 3.X PvP with zero experience to back them up, which is also true. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh?

And WOW, he was a part of Aether league? You mean the one where you have to... exactly do what, to be able to participate? Oh right, you have to be alive. So unless his team won or made it to the finals, which could be true as I haven't really followed the most recent Aether Cup, that doesn't really mean anything.

Third of all. Please humour me and make a LP team on Primal so we can show you very easily what it means to have Team Based Skill. You have no idea. Mercy in less than 3 minutes, I promise.

Who are you again?

Yeah right, because I have nothing better to do than create a team on an NA Data Center to prove a point to a random.
"Mercy in less than 3 minutes" Did you seriously just use your FCs name as a punchline in an attempt to intimidate me?... I mean, just wow.
And I'm someone who probably only some players on Chaos still remember, seeing as I haven't actively (aside from 10 to 50 games per season) participated in Ranked Feast pretty much since Season 3; which is when the whole thing started going downhill.

[AchaNoYumi]

"Mercy in less than 3 minutes" Did you seriously just use your FCs name as a punchline in an attempt to intimidate me?... I mean, just wow.

I literally just lost braincells. Again, you're proving that you do not participate in true competitive PvP as it is known among all the real competitive players on each Data Center that the term "Mercy" means beating the team before the clock runs out. Hello?

Anyway, since the point is completely going over your head, I'll try to explain it to you, yet again, so maybe you and all the other Frontliners here thinking they know what they are talking about can truly understand.

YES. You are correct. 4.x is easier than 3.x PvP. Why? Because of less skills on the hotbars.
Because less skills are on the hotbar, pvp is easier.

Because PvP is easier, people have to become more aware than ever of what is about to happen, thus upping their ability to read situations, play even more coordinated with their team, evaluate the game that they are playing, etc.

CRIT IS RIGHT ABOUT THE ABILITY TO CARRY HARDER SOLO IN 3.X.
WHY?

Because you had more tools to work with!
4.x FORCES players to play better with their team due to the lack of kits to work their way out of whatever situation they are in.
Thus, Crit is right all along.


Like how is this so hard to understand?
It really isn't.

Think in terms of Competitive Pokemon Play.
Each Pokemon only has four moves.
If you're playing against someone who has just as much skill as you in Pokemon, then it becomes a mind game. You are forced to read your opponent. Once he exposes some of his team, you are forced to not only read your opponent, but the team he has. You are forced to evaluate and think "Hm, does his team counter mine? What do I need to do to beat his team? Do I need to play offensively or defensively with my full team?"

3.x has proven time and time again that this was not the priority because players were able to carry by themselves. Remember when WARs were extremely freaking OP and practically untouchable? That video Crit posted?
Both are fine examples of people being able to carry by themselves.

If the problem is that people don't understand how to cooperate with their team, thus cause a huge L everytime they play, then I understand how the deters a lot of people. The simple fact is the mentality has changed since 3.x because people aren't able to solo carry like they used to be able to. And you know what? That is fine.

Though classes aren't completely balanced in 4.x, I would argue that 4.x has done a better job balancing all the classes than 3.x, making it slightly more fair for not only vets but new players as well.


Edit;

And to everyone who is saying that there are people that are in the Top 100 who don't belong there. Hey, you know what, I agree. There are people that are there that don't belong there. However, with that being said, rarely will you ever see those people in the Top 50, heck even in the Top 60. Those people got carried by the very same people who understand how to work with their team so well that they made it to the top. It's funny, though, that I don't see a single one of you talking about "how x person didn't belong there" be in the Top 100.

I challenge you all to attempt Top 100. Attempt Top 100, play with the people who know what they are doing, and then come back here and discuss how team focused this game is now. At least in the Ranked aspect. The moment you hit High Gold/Plat, you'll start to see it. And once you hit Diamond, you'll understand it entirely. Until then, I feel like your arguments are just banter, because you have no evidence to back it up.

Does that mean your opinion is invalid? Of course not, that's a selfish thing to say. However, its better to have evidence backing up your statements than having only like 10 games played in ranked then coming to a final conclusion on how the game is on a true competitive level.

The things that are being argued here are not the things that should be argued about.

Edit 2;

My good friend also brought up a very good point that I'm going to copy and paste to this post:

Rei Reizei - Today at 10:51 AM
@Buff WAR just to add to the argument.
in 3.0 pvp you also were able to use your regular gear instead of what we have now. Critical hits were also a thing then as well
so certain jobs that focused on crit builds were able to solo if you knew how to play
for example MCH, monk
monk especially since Fist of Fire and Fist of earth were broken
White Mage also had the ability to carry games due to Sleep CC
now since everyone are on an even playing field skill and stat wise
its harder to solo and carry your way through just by mashing buttons
control over the adren box garenteed victory if you knew how to utilize your LB
especially when it was just one box
just control that one box and you win
also what people dont realize is
crit didnt just get top 100 on one chara
he got it on multiple characters in the season

This statement is coming from a S1 vet who has hit Top 100 every season so far.

[Commander_Justitia]

If you're playing against someone who has just as much skill as you in Pokemon, then it becomes a mind game. You are forced to read your opponent. Once he exposes some of his team, you are forced to not only read your opponent, but the team he has. You are forced to evaluate and think "Hm, does his team counter mine? What do I need to do to beat his team? Do I need to play offensively or defensively with my full team?"

You know I could play chess too, way more strategy and way more mindgames, but it would also be pretty boring because we are here to play videogames. lol
Now what SE does, is looking at chess and removes every figure but the king and you are defending that decision and call it a superior game. And why does "carry the team" need to be difficult for good pvp? It's not an argument against or for it, a game can have either option and still be good and fun.

[Mofafafa]

reee

https://imgur.com/a/Ov553

Season 5. only reach silver at season 6 because i want the title.
Hi, sir top 100.
PS: I was never interested in top 100 reward so i never go for it, also, I was trolling whenever i reach diamond promotion, so i just playing all sorts of role and class, healer/dps/tank, if on doubt, ask any Elemental PvP guy, they see me, if you can.


1) Dimishing Return, a mechanics that allow the target to have immunity after 3 attemp from a CC such as (sleep, stun, slow, bind, heavy) in which they are halved for every attempt by 50% from the duration each time. I use this knowledge and communicated with my team when in coordinating and inform them which target have immunity and tell them the time that their immunity will be removed after 1 minute passed from the last attempt.

2) Skill, which is more related to psychological or reflex toward players ingame, pre-stormblood have more reflex / psychological gameplay with PvP skills or any other skill such as "Blood for Blood / fetter / full swing / etc" that requires the reflexes or psychology play of the player to quickly react towards the certain play.

3) Thinking, just think about current 9 button smash gameplay compared to before.

4) Mechanics, similar to above statement but we had more tools to utilize with and coordinate with party. Positional / basically PvE rotation / perfect application of CC chain / etc *not to mention *purify* which the party member uses on other party member*

5) Memorizing, remembering your own party member or opponent skills used such as Barrage ( 90s cooldown ), Benediction ( 3 minutes ), Hallowed Ground ( basically 1 use per match unless it goes overtime ), purify/attunement cooldown, etc

6) awareness, yea.. no.. whatever its almost the same anyway *purify on team member if you notice* etc

7) lol i dont even know what am i typing anymore after these final exam

8) positioning, omg dont tell me you dont understand this. People complaint about getting mass cometeor, not knowing how to position themselves by spreading. In JP server, a misuses of mass cometeor will lead to disadvantage as opponent will pressure you with their very own mass cometeor. Feast, yea.. many people do not understand this concept including some of the top 100


quoting my old post statement here, too lazy to edit.

[AchaNoYumi]

You know I could play chess too, way more strategy and way more mindgames, but it would also be pretty boring because we are here to play videogames. lol
Now what SE does, is looking at chess and removes every figure but the king and you are defending that decision and call it a superior game. And why does "carry the team" need to be difficult for good pvp? It's not an argument against or for it, a game can have either option and still be good and fun.

So why are you even arguing? The point Crit was making was that 3.x PvP had the ability to carry Solo while 4.x PvP is focused on coordinating with the team. I don't understand?

[AchaNoYumi]

https://imgur.com/a/Ov553

Healer isn't really underwhelming in 3.0 and not really Overpowered if you actually have a skilled teammate in your party. A coordinated burst is what we need, and awareness for purify in 3.0 chain cc, and psychological play for all your healer camping needs
I always queue with my JP mates for Rival Wings we just always end up with cumulative above 50+ kills from only our party even though opponent is filled with healers.

and for the Machinist wildfire on Heavensward, have you actually practices MCH in PvE? completing your PvE rotation in wildfire duration with the extra sprinkle from Between the EYE, wildfire could still do serious amount of damage

Your post is valid as it makes sense. I'm more directing these to these other people.
Also MCH is OP at the moment lol. That PvE rotation is basically all you need to do in PvP ATM to get the big dmgs off unless enemy Healer knows what Wildfire is and puts Protect/Beni/whatever unga shield up at the end of a countdown.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

First off, Acha, if you're going to attempt discussion, you better stow that holier-than-thou attitude quick. All that does is close people off to whatever point you're trying to make, and reflects poorly on you besides.

Now the, the claim that less skills means PvP is easier isn't quite true. Perhaps easier to someone just getting started and has no prior knowledge of anything, but there's a reason most pre-4.0 veterans dislike the new PvP: Depth. You don't trade depth for ease, then try to claim something is better for it. And you have the very mistaken impression that because things seem more team based now, it's better. It's not. You even admit that jobs aren't as balanced in 4.x, which those of us who played 3.x PvP are well aware of how much more balanced it was. Not perfect; it was never perfect, but a hell of a lot deeper, more balanced, and more fun. That is, IF you knew what you were doing.

You bring up solo carrying as a counter point, but realistically, you had to be REALLY good to pull that off, and I can't think of anyone who went in trying to do so. Sure, I carried a few myself, but that was simply taking advantage of momentum more often than not. I never attempted to carry anything because 1: I'm not that full of myself, and 2: I'm well aware of how unrealistic a 1v4 is. So, to try and claim that solo carrying was such a big, common thing is just incorrect. At the same time however, knowing when you had a weak link on the team and being able to fully utilize your kit to try and accommodate for said weak link was a necessary and learned skill. Having less to work with in that regard, skill-wise, is not a step up. It's a big step down.

Another point you make, which I've made a greater counter point to is that people don't understand how to cooperate with their team. Thing is, 9 buttons didn't fix that either. I've said many times in many threads that all attempts to make the Feast "foolproof" have so far failed, and only disappointed or driven experienced players away from it. People who didn't care to learn how to play then, likely still don't now, and if they somehow found a way to drop it all to 4 buttons, they still wouldn't, and THAT is the real issue. Yes, high level Feast does demand that teams cooperate and play at their best, but that's nothing new. If anything, it took MORE skill just to reach Gold rank back then, whereas now you can easily fumble your way into it, Top 100 or not. Hell just look at past seasons; Top 100 ranged from Diamond to Gold players, but now? With all the "foolproofing" and dumbing down of the systems of the Feast, it's all Diamond and some Platinum. Tell me how accurately that reflects player skill when everyone's at the top?

4.x doesn't encourage or reward team play, it forces reliance on your team, for better or worse, by limiting your kit and abilities to act/react to the situation at hand. For anyone who knew what to do and do it well then, it's hardly a hinderance - an annoyance at best - but don't think people who were good then aren't good now.

Your post is valid as it makes sense. I'm more directing these to these other people.
Also MCH is OP at the moment lol. That PvE rotation is basically all you need to do in PvP ATM to get the big dmgs off unless enemy Healer knows what Wildfire is and puts Protect/Beni/whatever unga shield up at the end of a countdown.

Let me address this as a career MCH:

First off, I didn't need to use Wildfire back then. Not only did I not need it, I sure as hell wasn't going to be performing any kind of PvE rotation with it.

Many times I used it as a feint; throw it on one guy to get his healer's attention there, then attack another target. Or I'd use it as an insurance during a burst. Watching it go off and take someone out when they think they got away or used Attunement was enjoyable.

Turning the freeform MCH shot combo into a linear one is awful. Like, it really is. Whereas once you could Reload>Slug Shot to proc a Clean Shot, now, you HAVE to perform the combo just to reach that shot. Having Stun Gun force an Overheat not only feels bad, it's taught newer MCHs to waste the only aoe stun in PvP as an Overheat button more often than not. Forcing your "burst" to be centered around Wildfire makes it brainless and obvious, where it wasn't before (and Wildfire wasn't even needed for said burst).

The rework of reloading isn't terrible, but common misunderstanding of it limits most MCH players. Feast or Frontlines, when I hear someone fully load their gun before battle, it just kills me inside knowing how they just gimped themselves for 3 shots. And by now I'm quite tired of trying to correct it.

With the exception of BTE, which requires a cc modifier for its max damage, MCH has no notable oGCD attacks, which can literally be felt in clutch moments.

MCH is strong, but it's hardly OP. And trying to force people to use PvE rotations in PvP definitely wasn't an improvement. Certainly not for MCH.

[AchaNoYumi]

First off, Acha, if you're going to attempt discussion, you better stow that holier-than-thou attitude quick.

Lol @ this statement. How are you deriving a Holier-than-thou attitude when people are literally insulting my friend starting off for making the same argument that you all are agreeing with magically now? So these people that are insulting my friend aren't holier-than-thou because they are agreeing with you? Seems pretty one-sided and petty if you ask me.

Literally everything that you think you're "arguing against me with" is actually the complete opposite. If you took a moment to read my post, you'd realize that you're in fact agreeing with me rather than arguing.
So again, I ask, why are you guys even arguing against Crit? Why are you guys even arguing against me?

The point originally, and still remains, is that 4.x requires team oriented play more than ever, the ability to read situations (that skill also includes with who you're playing with and who you're playing against) and the ability to carry solo is lowered tremendously.

And again, if people are deterred from PvP because they don't understand how to work with a team, then that's their problem.

And you misread, I stated that classes are more balanced now in 4.x than in 3.x, not the other way around. Please refer to my previous post with the quote that my friend said.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Crit ran their mouth and made an ass of themself, not unlike you've been doing as well, and people shut him down for it. This is me not feeling one bit sorry for that.

Jobs are not more balanced now. I invite you to go read those job guides or take a look around the PvP forums a bit.

And no, 4.x really doesn't demand any more team play or situational awareness than before. Sure, you can't solo carry so easily anymore, but that wasn't what it was all about in the first place. People aren't deterred from PvP because they don't understand how to work as a team, they're deterred because it's not good, or because they already had negative stigmas about it anyways. It really does take knowing what we had vs what we have now to see the sad irony of how people hated/avoided 3.x PvP for the exact reasons and issues that are prevalent now in 4.x PvP, but are too busy lauding SE for their big "fix".