The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[Kazrah]

Get rid of "normal" mode all together.

This video explains how I feel about it.

Casual players bring in the money, not the hardcore raiders, and removing that would actually make those casual players even less inclined to attempt savage content.

[Nestama]

SSS rank for example does not have to be set at the current difficulty, it could be more challenging. Same with all the ranks. Lets say "A" is the current difficulty.

It would also promote practice of the end content. Get rid of "normal" mode all together. If the entry is set lower more people will probably get to the "higher" content, or at least feel more comfortable attempting it.

Binding Coil called, it wants to tell you why Normal Mode raids exist at all.
Also, without Savage, we'd see nerfs to the difficult content. The Second Binding Coil, which was an actually challenging raid back in 2014, was nerfed hard due to it being too difficult for casual players who just wanted to see the (really good) story.

So no, Normal mode will not be removed and Enrage timers should not be removed. I'm going to hammer the same point that has been said, but without an enrage timer, DPS no longer have a responsibility to have a decent DPS rotation. They can be slack. Tanks and healers, however, can never be slack. Ever. That's not fair for them if four people can just spam one skill.

[KaldeaSahaline]

This is moving the goalpost again. Savage/Ultimate =/= Casual dungeon. You're trying to strawman my point.

Not my intent.

Okay....? But you're not Bobs and Bobs doesn't have your credentials. So you aren't making any sense at this point. All of what I said was directed at Bobs due to what he has posted, not you, not anyone else. You seem to think I've made a generalization? If I said something that made you misunderstand then I didn't do it intentionally so now you know.

IIRC yes that was what I felt you (and others did). I even apologized a few pages back that I suspect my OP to you was in error and likely to someone else.

I never said anything about your experience, remember? He doesn't have the experience you have. So...its like you are just stepping in front of him with a shield and like "ok he doesn't have any credentials, but I do, so fight me instead". But...like what point is there in that? I have no issue with anything you've posted.

I don't see any point to any of this...you seem to be turning it into being about you when its not.

Last I checked it's a PLD skill called Cover. XD. The point was that I wanted you and others to tell him why he's wrong, not that he is wrong because he hasn't done it.

When you would have finished Gordias Savage or Midas Savage during it was relevant content, then yes, we could talk about it.

The difference between Gordias/Midas and Creator/Deltascape/Sigmascape is huge.

Just an example. In A8S just one dead guy was for us in 99% of the cases a wipe. In O4S Neo Exdeath we could easily kill it with a 13 on the death counter.

Or another one: For Midas Savage we needed the entire Tier to finish it. Deltascape Savage we were done 6 weeks before the midway patch.

With just "easy" Raidcontent like Creator, Deltascape and Sigmascape in mind ... no, you don't have an idea what "real" savage is like.

Correct I did not finish Gordias. I was a DRG back then and my static was dead weight. Instead of looking for another I decided to go back to WoW.

Humor me though - when you progressed Gordias how many hours/days were you raiding a week?

Being a melee dps, on a server that wasn't the prime raiding server at the time, with a schedule that only supported 4-5 hours a week tops I didn't have very many "good" choices.

However, I did progress it and experience it. Just because I did not clear does not immediately remove all qualification to speak on the topic.

When the community lambasted A3S I actually praised it. It had issues (mostly related to latency/server checks), but it had really good mechanics in it and I enjoyed the fight.

[Multifridgeman]

To explain why enrage timers are absolutely necessary, I'll use the 3 essential points for getting involved in high level endgame content:

1. Learn the job.
An understanding of the goals and objectives of your job is mandatory. Figure out an opener and a rotation that works for you, and memorise it as best you can.

2. Learn the fight.
Practice. Focus on mechanics first and foremost until you have know the movements like the back of your hand.

3. Adapt the job to the fight.
Put it all together. Combine the experience of your job with the knowledge of the mechanics to create and refine a unique strategy for that fight.

[Multifridgeman]

Cont.
What does all this have to do with enrage timers? You WILL make mistakes, and it\\'s the enrage that lets you know. There\\'s always something that can be improved upon, and the hp percentage remaining on enrage wipe shows just how much. It tells you that mechanics need to be tighter, dps rotations need to be refined, and perhaps most importantly, there needs to be less deaths. Dying puts you at 0 dps instantly, and being raised with weakness severely hampers your potential. 9 times out of 10, enrage wipes are caused by too many weakness debuffs.
Enrage timers are the developers telling you "It's possible, keep trying.", and removing them would in turn remove the 'adapt' concept of high level endgame instances.

[Kamatsu]

Binding Coil called, it wants to tell you why Normal Mode raids exist at all.
Also, without Savage, we'd see nerfs to the difficult content. The Second Binding Coil, which was an actually challenging raid back in 2014, was nerfed hard due to it being too difficult for casual players who just wanted to see the (really good) story.

So no, Normal mode will not be removed and Enrage timers should not be removed. I'm going to hammer the same point that has been said, but without an enrage timer, DPS no longer have a responsibility to have a decent DPS rotation. They can be slack. Tanks and healers, however, can never be slack. Ever. That's not fair for them if four people can just spam one skill.

That would explain why the ARR Binding Coils Savage only covers the Second Binding coil - the 'normal' version was nerfed so that casual / story-focused players could experience the great story in the coils, but then the savage version was added in so that those who wanted the 'hard' version could play the harder version.

I agree that enrage timers shouldn't be removed, I also agree that the different 'versions' of dungeons & raids shouldn't be removed either. "Normal" version of dungeons, trials, raids should be easily doable by PUG's, casual players, story-focused players, etc... while there most definitely should be harder Extreme / Savage versions for those who want harder fights, deal with harder mechanics, have to co-ordinate more with others, etc. Removing enrage timers / mechanics would make fights too lenient to mistakes and bad gameplay.

One thing that maybe SE could do is put 'soft' versions of harder mechanics in MSQ solo fights - this way casual / story players will face them, but make it so they can still easily get through them... but understand how they work. This way when/if they get into harder content that uses the full potential of this mechanic... they'll at least have experienced it and have some idea of how it works vs no-idea.

Classic example of 2 mechanics I see no-one knowing how it works is Forgail in Weeping City with his Mega Death ability (avoid by going into green puddles) and Deathgaze Hollow in Dun Scaith and it's Void Aero IV ability that push's people off the platform - these are 2 fights I constantly have AR either wiping on or coming close to wiping due to people dying to these mechanics... would love to see a softer/easier-to-avoid version of these appear in MSQ solo fights or such.

[Nestama]

What's funny about Savage Second Coil is that it's the "original/untouched" Second Coil. This is what we were going to get, but for one reason or another, they decided to release a more... friendlier version on 2.2's release.

[Shurrikhan]

What's funny about Savage Second Coil is that it's the "original/untouched" Second Coil. This is what we were going to get, but for one reason or another, they decided to release a more... friendlier version on 2.2's release.

When have they ever explicitly said that Savage was original implementation of the raids? If you've got a link for that, then okay, but...

If you're talking about pre-nerf SCoB as it was released and Savage (as compared to the watered-down SCoB implemented later), having cleared SCoB pre-nerf and Savage SCoB thereafter... I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. Are twice the rate and number of simultaneous mechanics the "same" thing, just because there's no explicitly new mechanic?

Yes, Savage builds off the original, not the nerfed state, but... that's still no reason to call them any more alike, really, than Savage and normal modes have been since HW. And I highly doubt they'd go straight from BCoB to "oh, this is a perfectly reasonable slight step up the difficulty curve" Savage SCoB. That sounds like myth to me.

[Nestama]

What I mean is that SE originally designed Second Coil Savage first, but then cut down the difficulty and released what we got in 2.2 instead (and then released Savage later).

I'm mostly going by what I vaguely remember, as I'm pretty sure this was mentioned in a Live Letter, interview or something at some point in the past (but any time I try to look up Second Coil Savage news/interviews, I get Unending Coil instead)

[Vaer]

I remember hearing about the same thing but it was in relation to how they design fights in general. When they make the prototype for the fights the difficulty is usually really high/near impossible so when they start QA and play testing it they start cutting it down until they get to the difficulty they want. They were talking in general about all content though. What they said was that if Savage Second Coil is released it would be something like "original spec/prototype, we don't know if even the devs can beat it." They basically said they tune downwards instead of up and Savage Second Coil would be close to the untouched version or prototype.