This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

[Eli85]

Snip

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

No, I am not policing preferences and I full well know the difference between need and preference. To put my point simply, is this: when all classes can not only complete the hardest content, but are 100% viable, and the community still insists upon the meta, then the community is being tremendously irresponsible. To also emphasize: each and every class has every tool that they need to succeed in the hardest content. This can all be mathematically confirmed and verified.

So what does this 'meta' do in light of all this? It drives a wedge between players in the community, creating an epidemic of disdain and isolation for classes not in the meta.

The game has been balanced for every class to complete all the content. If players want slight edges (because a balance of everyone does the same DPS will never be achieved), that will only show up on FF Logs, well, that's creating toxicity.

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

[Trensharo]

Also regarding WoW, people here are wrong...

People switch specs in WoW all the time. People reroll based on raid group needs all the time. Some people play multiple classes, and switch based on what the raid needs. I get the impression that many in this thread have never raided in a serious Heroic (before Mythic) or Mythic progression Guild in WoW.

You had to be flexible. Even on a pure DPS class, like Warlock, there were fights that blatantly favored one spec over the other, and the DPS output between the specs had a pretty huge disparity on those encounters. Saying "I only like Destro, so I'm going to play that" means you're going to be doing 10%+ DPS less than the other spec on those encounters - not helpful.

The fact that FFXIV lets you level multiple jobs on the same character should be a clue to people. Flexibility is an asset. It's okay to lobby for class balance, but you can't be taken that seriously if you play [+/- exclusively] one class in the game. Adjust.

[Trensharo]

<Snipped>

You're policing it by demonizing it. Telling people it's awful (i.e. "it creates toxicity," calling them "ignorant," etc.) is a tactic used to change their behavior. That's actually toxic and bigoted.

"Toxicity" is one of those new FAD words used to label everything people don't like - usually by people being "toxic" - even if those actions are perfectly okay. Disagreeing with something doesn't make it bad by default. META is not bad, per se. It's just inconvenient to people who choose to play classes not in the current META. That's all.

People tend to "want" to be benevolent. Your tactic exploits that, and is used to police others' behavior by labeling behaviors that are okay - but you disagree with - as bad, and then conflating it to seem like the entire community disagrees with it. We actually do this to teach our kids how to behave, so it has some utility - but most of us aren't kids. We don't need this, or want it.

They're saving time and increasing their fun factor in the game. You just don't like it, because you picked a class to play that doesn't get the preferential treatment. Boo. Hoo...

Meta means a group composition that is more efficient or effective than others.

That's all it means. That a group built around good P.DPS classes that can debuff P.VULN is more effective than if you took a P.DPS and replaced it with an M.DPS.

The community isn't being irresponsible. They just know basic arithmetic. Stop acting like you don't (or... do you?).

Not wanting your Black Mage because their "Meta Setup" performs better (statistically speaking - we shouldn't care about outliers or anecdotes) is not toxic.

It's common mathematical sense. The math agrees with them, not you.

It's not their fault that they take these things a bit more serious than you do. They don't pay a subscription or play the game just to make you feel good about the choice you've made in it.

[Okamimaru]

All I'm hearing is that if I use a non meta class to clear EX/Savage content I am just a much better player than everyone else... requiring certain classes only shows me the group is inflexible and probably can't adapt when things go nuts...

[Trensharo]

No, what you're hearing is that, statistically speaking, assuming equal skill levels, the META setup will perform better at a more reliable rate than other setups.

That's how these things work, but you're warping it to fit your own narrative of being "such a good player." It has nothing to do with skill, since the game must be balanced assuming a relatively equal skill level - and players then work to achieve that level.

It's almost like people are willfully refusing to understand something that is almost trivial to grasp...

Black Mage isn't a bad class. the problem is that groups that don't use Black Mage tend to do better, on average, than those that do.

This is the problem, and this is the balance point that needs to be addressed.

How can we make groups that use casters perform - generally - about as well, as consistently, as those that are built around melee DPS and support classes/buffs.debuffs?

---

Instead of addressing these problems, you've turned it into a witch hunt on the META and those players who prefer to stick to it. Not even really on-topic, to be frank.

A META will always exist. It's impossible for it not to, because balance is never flawless and classes are different. The issue I seem to sense is that people are simply salty because their choice class isn't part of that group. Classes in the META aren't complaining about the META - this never happens :-P

[Kohlian]

This probably sounds dumb to a lot of the hardcore players, but with any MMORPG I don't care what is meta, me and my friends will play what we enjoy and go through the games content that way. And I've met dozens of people that feel the same way, most of them becoming good friends I play other MMOs with now or we've joined guilds that carry that idea. I'm not looking to be the best, I'm looking to enjoy the game. I know this isn't a solution, but I hope you focus on enjoying your playtime instead of worrying if you're going to meet anyone's expectations. And trust me, you're not worthless no matter what you play and don't let anyone ruin the game from you because "hurrr the X job is best right now I demand you play that or you can't join us in this raid!"

[Trensharo]

This probably sounds dumb to a lot of the hardcore players, but with any MMORPG I don't care what is meta, me and my friends will play what we enjoy and go through the games content that way. And I've met dozens of people that feel the same way, most of them becoming good friends I play other MMOs with now or we've joined guilds that carry that idea. I'm not looking to be the best, I'm looking to enjoy the game. I know this isn't a solution, but I hope you focus on enjoying your playtime instead of worrying if you're going to meet anyone's expectations. And trust me, you're not worthless no matter what you play and don't let anyone ruin the game from you because "hurrr the X job is best right now I demand you play that or you can't join us in this raid!"

Players running a raid don't demand anyone play anything. They simply set their requirements. Not everyone can meet them.

Apart from that, I agree with what you stated.

[Veliena]

You realize that using Week 2 statistics as a citation for game balance that doesn't include raid dps contribution adds nothing to your point.



Read my posts



I'm all for people running what class they are comfortable with. However, anyone that says that there isn't a significant performance gain from using certain classes which makes progression easy and speedkills quicker, I don't want to raid with because clearly they don't have a clue about how the game works.

Saying that the balance of the game is fine because everything can clear is more ignorant imo.

You keep doing the same thing. You say something, I say something to counter that and you turn around and say "No I never said that, read what I said" Like really?

I have said multiple times that yes, blm does need work, but you seem to ignore that fact every time. The issue I have with most of what you keep saying and asking for is you aren't asking for blm to be more unique or bring something a raid would desire as much as the current buffs provided by other jobs, you ask for those jobs to be killed, blm buffed so you, as a blm, have a spot in any raid group due to the class you play.

[HaroldSaxon]

When did I say there isn't a performance gain? Obviously, in any game, there will be some classes that perform better than others; and if the difference is egregious, then some re-balancing [should] occur.

And the difference is vast in some cases.

Now let's go into some raiding realities.

Unless you are bleeding edge progression, you are not wiping because of 'numbers.' For the vast majority of hardcore raiders, you are struggling with mechanics far, far earlier than numbers. And, in all actuality, once you execute the mechanics flawlessly, the boss dies. Numbers only come in when balance is porous and / or you're carrying.

As for speed runs? Who cares? The boss dies. That's all the matters.

Just because YOU don't care about speedrunning or bleeding edge progression, doesn't mean others don't. Furthermore a more optimal comp will help you clear sooner, give you more room for mistakes and what not.

In a PvE context, it's not ignorance; it is really is fine. If every single class can complete the hardest content available, there isn't a balance issue.

Wrong. Class Balance is not about if the fights can be cleared (that is fight design). Class balance is the performance of classes in comparison with each other.

If you can complete the hardest content but still whine "mah numbers," then you just need your ego checked. Reality: your numbers don't mean anything so long as the boss dies. It's like when sports teams win a championship. Sure, the star player is lauded, but do you think the rest of the team gives two figs that their stat line wasn't on par with everyone else? No, they just care that they won.

Wrong again. Using your example. What game do people remember most in the 2016 World Cup? Was it that Germany won in the final? No, they thrashed Brazil 7-1 in the Semi final. In 10/20 years time, will people remember that Messi or Ronaldo didn't win everything in every season? No, they'll care about their absolutely exceptional numbers.

Just because you don't care about personal attainment or groups wanting to better themselves, doesn't mean others don't.

And none of these groups and FCs are worth playing with. They have a fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding works. It's not worth the frustration of trying to join if these 'groups' think only the 'meta' can clear a fight (reality check: every class can).

In your opinion. Plenty of others enjoy the playstyle. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a social issue where people will want a meta comp filled with poor players at the expense of a non meta comp filled with good players, but the amount of good players playing non meta classes as a main class is very low. Why? Because the classes, and in this case, role (casters) are so bad. Maybe if you had actually read the thread rather than immediately start raging and insulting people, you would realize that.

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

Because your metric of "top performing" isn't accurate. Its ridiculous to claim the top personal DPS class is the top performing DPS role because you aren't taking into account raid dps contribution.

SAM had top personal DPS last patch (with SMN changing on both fights). They weren't meta because BRD/NIN/DRG and MCH (with MNK swapping for MCH in o1s) did more raidwide DPS. It is a team game afterall

[HaroldSaxon]

You keep doing the same thing. You say something, I say something to counter that and you turn around and say "No I never said that, read what I said" Like really?

I have said multiple times that yes, blm does need work, but you seem to ignore that fact every time. The issue I have with most of what you keep saying and asking for is you aren't asking for blm to be more unique or bring something a raid would desire as much as the current buffs provided by other jobs, you ask for those jobs to be killed, blm buffed so you, as a blm, have a spot in any raid group due to the class you play.

Am I not allowed to make counterpoints? Am I not allowed to deny saying something that I haven't said?

You specifically said this:

yes thats what I meant.

Now the issue I have here, is you didn't ask or mention blm getting a buff to compete with them, you asked for their buff to be removed, and blm given a buff for the group. Pick a direction.

I absolutely did not say that BLM should be given a buff for the group. If you can find a post where I have said that then feel free to quote it. Perhaps you misread something I said.

I have always said I want BLM to be more unique. Please quote examples where you think I have said otherwise? BLM's uniqueness is:

1) Longer cast times
2) Damage is all on cast times, no OGCD damage
3) Selfish carry DPS

The combination of that is a playstyle that no over class has. I absolutely do not want BLM to be turned into yet another mid dps with utility and high movement. Did I ask for other jobs to be killed? No. Did I say that Disembowel's existence was problematic to class balance? Yes. Have I said that BRD/NIN/MCH/DRG should be nerfed or at least have some time outside of the meta so that other classes can shine? Yes, and I stand by that statement. Three of those classes have been optimal since 3.0, and the composition itself has been optimal since 3.3. No caster has been optimal since a2s as a single fight, and 2.4 as a tier.

At the end of the day there's only a certain amount of dps classes - so they can't all be meta. What is important is this meta changes between fights/patches, that at least one of every role is featured (Melee/Ranged/Caster) and that some patches/fights feature double melee, some feature double ranged and some feature double caster.