This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

[Eli85]

Snip

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

No, I am not policing preferences and I full well know the difference between need and preference. To put my point simply, is this: when all classes can not only complete the hardest content, but are 100% viable, and the community still insists upon the meta, then the community is being tremendously irresponsible. To also emphasize: each and every class has every tool that they need to succeed in the hardest content. This can all be mathematically confirmed and verified.

So what does this 'meta' do in light of all this? It drives a wedge between players in the community, creating an epidemic of disdain and isolation for classes not in the meta.

The game has been balanced for every class to complete all the content. If players want slight edges (because a balance of everyone does the same DPS will never be achieved), that will only show up on FF Logs, well, that's creating toxicity.

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

[Trensharo]

<Snipped>

You're policing it by demonizing it. Telling people it's awful (i.e. "it creates toxicity," calling them "ignorant," etc.) is a tactic used to change their behavior. That's actually toxic and bigoted.

"Toxicity" is one of those new FAD words used to label everything people don't like - usually by people being "toxic" - even if those actions are perfectly okay. Disagreeing with something doesn't make it bad by default. META is not bad, per se. It's just inconvenient to people who choose to play classes not in the current META. That's all.

People tend to "want" to be benevolent. Your tactic exploits that, and is used to police others' behavior by labeling behaviors that are okay - but you disagree with - as bad, and then conflating it to seem like the entire community disagrees with it. We actually do this to teach our kids how to behave, so it has some utility - but most of us aren't kids. We don't need this, or want it.

They're saving time and increasing their fun factor in the game. You just don't like it, because you picked a class to play that doesn't get the preferential treatment. Boo. Hoo...

Meta means a group composition that is more efficient or effective than others.

That's all it means. That a group built around good P.DPS classes that can debuff P.VULN is more effective than if you took a P.DPS and replaced it with an M.DPS.

The community isn't being irresponsible. They just know basic arithmetic. Stop acting like you don't (or... do you?).

Not wanting your Black Mage because their "Meta Setup" performs better (statistically speaking - we shouldn't care about outliers or anecdotes) is not toxic.

It's common mathematical sense. The math agrees with them, not you.

It's not their fault that they take these things a bit more serious than you do. They don't pay a subscription or play the game just to make you feel good about the choice you've made in it.

[Eli85]

Snip.

I really don't understand why my point is so hard to get across.

No, the mathematics don't disagree with me, they disagree with you. The 'meta' (assuming we agree with it) requires more than is necessary to defeat the boss. Literally any group comp can mathematically kill the boss without. To deliberately exclude classes who can easily kill the boss creates a toxic environment of exclusion. This obsession over metre competing, speed running, just creates an awful environment.

I also never complained about my BLM being excluded.

Snip.

The primarily role of a DPS class is to provide DPS. Secondary roles are utility. So yes, whoever has the highest parse on a fight is the top DPS. That is by definition and to argue against it is to show you don't know what you're talking about. So yes, BLM isn't in the meta, but it's the top performing DPS. The whole thing is comical.

And the difference is vast in some cases.

Look up the statistics on FF Logs. There is no 'vast difference.' From top to bottom, the difference isn't glaring.

Just because YOU don't care about speedrunning or bleeding edge progression, doesn't mean others don't. Furthermore a more optimal comp will help you clear sooner, give you more room for mistakes and what not.

So the skip X phase or disband isn't cancerous? People care about speed running, and that's the problem. You don't save that much time in any given comp. It just creates problems.

Wrong. Class Balance is not about if the fights can be cleared (that is fight design). Class balance is the performance of classes in comparison with each other.

Actually, you are wrong. Classes are designed and balanced with end game fights in mind (other aspects of the game just works). If a class is performing poorly (or too highly) in top end of content, that's when change occurs.

If every class is viable for end game content, in a PvE context, it's properly balanced. Full stop.

Wrong again. Using your example. What game do people remember most in the 2016 World Cup? Was it that Germany won in the final? No, they thrashed Brazil 7-1 in the Semi final. In 10/20 years time, will people remember that Messi or Ronaldo didn't win everything in every season? No, they'll care about their absolutely exceptional numbers.

What professional athlete can you think of that cares about MVPs, scoring titles, over team championships? Very, very few. Championships are what goes into the record books, not who had the best stat line in the championship game.

Just because you don't care about personal attainment or groups wanting to better themselves, doesn't mean others don't.

Once again you are misunderstanding me. Personal attainment or self improvement is fine. Excluding others because they don't fit into some mythical 'meta' — despite the fact that they can complete the content — that's the problem.

In your opinion. Plenty of others enjoy the playstyle. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a social issue where people will want a meta comp filled with poor players at the expense of a non meta comp filled with good players, but the amount of good players playing non meta classes as a main class is very low. Why? Because the classes, and in this case, role (casters) are so bad. Maybe if you had actually read the thread rather than immediately start raging and insulting people, you would realize that.

Casters being 'bad' is a community created concept that has no merit to it whatsoever. The best DPSer in the game is a caster. Too many people in the community have created this myth that casters are bad and these others are better. It's false. Everyone is capable of clearing the content.

Because your metric of "top performing" isn't accurate. Its ridiculous to claim the top personal DPS class is the top performing DPS role because you aren't taking into account raid dps contribution.

SAM had top personal DPS last patch (with SMN changing on both fights). They weren't meta because BRD/NIN/DRG and MCH (with MNK swapping for MCH in o1s) did more raidwide DPS. It is a team game afterall

As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

[Tsilyi]

The primarily role of a DPS class is to provide DPS. Secondary roles are utility. So yes, whoever has the highest parse on a fight is the top DPS. That is by definition and to argue against it is to show you don't know what you're talking about. So yes, BLM isn't in the meta, but it's the top performing DPS. The whole thing is comical.

As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

Are you making sure to discount any of the buffs they gained from these other so called DPS classes buffing them? Balance, crit buffs, flat damage% increases. Would you say that a group of 4 blm as dps (excluding the fact that it would have an impact on the LB gauge) would produce more rDPS than say a meta composition such as brd/mch/drg/nin? You cannot consider DPS in a vacuum. You have to consider the utility brought and/or sacrificed.

BLM brings only apocstasis on its own. It should be doing more damage, just as samurai should be, to cover for the fact that it does not improve anyone else's damage or help give say, healers more time to dps and anything like that. The whole point of DPS is to contribute dps, and if you are not considering the impact a particular dps job has on the other dps that surround them, with buffs and utility, then you aren't looking at the whole picture of dps. I'm bringing this up to show you don't know what you're talking about.

[HaroldSaxon]

Look up the statistics on FF Logs. There is no 'vast difference.' From top to bottom, the difference isn't glaring.

Wrong

So the skip X phase or disband isn't cancerous? People care about speed running, and that's the problem. You don't save that much time in any given comp. It just creates problems.

I wouldn't call it that word, but I don't think its wrong to set your own requirements for parties.

Actually, you are wrong. Classes are designed and balanced with end game fights in mind (other aspects of the game just works). If a class is performing poorly (or too highly) in top end of content, that's when change occurs.

Again, wrong. The optimal comp hasn't changed for multiple patches now.

If every class is viable for end game content, in a PvE context, it's properly balanced. Full stop.

Wrong

What professional athlete can you think of that cares about MVPs, scoring titles, over team championships? Very, very few. Championships are what goes into the record books, not who had the best stat line in the championship game.

If you think professional athlete's don't care about being the best they can be, both individually and as a team, you clearly don't have a clue about professional athletes. And that mentality only serves my point further.

Once again you are misunderstanding me. Personal attainment or self improvement is fine. Excluding others because they don't fit into some mythical 'meta' — despite the fact that they can complete the content — that's the problem.

So what, you are forced to play with people who have different mindsets and goals to you?

Casters being 'bad' is a community created concept that has no merit to it whatsoever. The best DPSer in the game is a caster. Too many people in the community have created this myth that casters are bad and these others are better. It's false. Everyone is capable of clearing the content.

Wrong again.

As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

Wrong again. Raid DPS > Personal DPS

[Tsilyi]

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

surely you aren't making the claim the that highest dps = the top performing role based on that number. said class provides no additional raid dps. in a vacuum, sure, they look the best. when you take the other factors into account, they do not.