What are the most common reasons people don't dps?

[Miste]

Those are both cherry picked sentences in the middle of more constructed messages and answer to talking about player that aren't even here just to say they'are lazy or incompetent or princesse healer or whatever else. This isn't helping anyone at all.

You're just slapping on my post any meaning that would serve your point.

-_-

Based on what you have posted I felt like you were advocating that we shouldn't bother encouraging 0 DPS healers to try doing some DPS.

They may be separate posts but it is all your words and your thoughts and about the same topic the last few pages between us. It's not cherry picking if they are related to why I felt you were being defeatist.

You don't understand why I felt that way so I posted the sentences that you wrote that make me feel that way. It isn't really about you. I am trying to explain how I see your posts. It's got nothing to do with any argument "point" I am just telling you how I see it. My point of view of what you have written.

If that wasn't what you mean then...what did you mean?

every 0 DPS healer isn't gonna listen to what you say exactly because you're saying it.

Why bother talking about 0 DPS healers ? Is it gonna solve everything ?

Explain to me the reason why you said these two sentences then. I want to understand why you said these two sentences. They are basically singular sentences they have nothing to do with calling healers lazy or princesses since you didn't say that in them.

You replied to me and I never said all 0 DPS healers are lazy nor did I say all 0 DPS healers are princesses. All I said in that post was it is okay to encourage healers to DPS...encouraging healers to DPS is not related to calling them lazy or princesses.

So why did you reply to me with these sentences in that reply? What does encouraging healers to DPS have to do with calling them lazy or princesses?

There is a difference between encouraging and discussing how the game is designed and forcing people to do something. Encouraging is not forcing. Discussing how the game is designed is not forcing. Discussing that healers should -try- to put in equal effort as their teammates is not forcing.

I don't know why you seem to think the people here are "forcing" people to do anything. No one has the power to force you or anyone else to do anything, but we do wish to encourage people to learn jobs in a way that is most beneficial to yourself and for your party since we all should be striving to do our best to help each other.

If you can do something to help your parties then why would you fight against it? Why fight against improvement when it helps you and helps others too?

We aren't talking about healers doing not enough DPS, we mean ones that do absolutely zero. If a healer at least casts a few instant cast DoTs here and there on bosses or on regular pulls then at least they are trying to stay active and trying to do whatever they are able to do to assist themselves and their group.

Just to make this easier this is my original first post in reply to you where you then replied about "why bother talking about 0 DPS healers" and "0 DPS healers aren't going to listen just because you are saying it"

There is nothing in this post about laziness or princesses.

[RopeDrink]

WHM failed miserably, but I think this may be because of a failure by the developers understanding how the players are playing the game and instead trying to force us to play the game their way. In some ways, yeah, trying to force a certain playstyle does make it so that it's easier to balance because you know what players are doing. But, with WHM, they completely missed the mark since overhealing is bad when you could DPS to help meet DPS checks and/or end an encounter sooner to avoid things going wrong. They should have accounted for the DPSing healers better and didn't.

I fail to see how anyone can come to the conclusion that their desire with the Lilly system is to get WHM's to heal more than needed. It's a CD-shaving perk system, one that helps you lower the cooldown on abilities of choice, of which has no effect on the potency or general use of our standard kit (which already has all bases covered). There is no reason to over-heal for the sake of generating a Lilly that will help cool an ability that we couldn't even spam to begin with. Considering they're practically permanent when generated (and the fact that being in a position where you're not generating them often equates to situations where you're also not using the damn things), there is nothing stopping a WHM from generating them passively and focusing attention on DPS instead of worrying about the fact they don't have all their lilies for that one ability to have a slightly shorter than normal CD.

The system is by no means there to incentivize WHM's overhealing for no reason.

[Sebazy]

I fail to see how anyone can come to the conclusion that their desire with the Lilly system is to get WHM's to heal more than needed.

I think the core of Inhaled's point stands pretty well. It's quite apparent that SB's job design team had little healing experience and this was something I was screeching about pretty much from the moment the first press builds got demonstrated.

The way SCH got completely gutted like a fish almost entirely by accident is the most immediately apparent proof of this but as you say, the WHM's kit had some pretty significant flaws in it too.

I feel like the original WHM kit for SB was designed with more of a tank and spank mentality in mind. The intention was for the job's potency over time to ramp up as you piled more HPS pressure on them. More cures = more lilies = more Tetras, Assizes and Benisons. Not to mention, the original PI went along with this too, it would have been pretty nice in encounters such as A1S, T11 or even Faust2 (pretty much any situation where both tanks were taking sustained damage).

Of course, we all know that that's just not how the endgame's panned out pretty much since HW. IMHO there was a complete disconnect between the content planners and the job designers. We got a bunch of abilities that were aimed at big sustained tank heals, but we never actually got a fight that made much use of it. O3S is about as close as it gets, whereas it might as well not even be there for O4S, that encounter is full of occasions where I'd love a Lily to use Benison, but don't have anything to cure in order to do so.

It'd be quite interesting to see how the WHM community would have reacted if we didn't get Thin Air. I suspect it wouldn't have been pretty

TLDR, the job designers didn't try to incentivise over-healing, rather they just didn't under stand how healers actually work in the end game. It's a shame as I get pretty decent value out of Lilys in dungeons.

[Vyriah]

snip

Uh... This feel like going great lenght for reall simple thing.

The people you're talking about mostly are not reading all this, so you could be writting 1000 pages of it it wouldn't change anything at all. If you want to try to talk about it to someone in the game, go ahead. Just consider they may be resilient to what you're saying the same you are right about what I saying. And nothing much more.
But talking about it here and now, between people that are mostly not concerned by it doesn't mean much. I mean I got every single argument for healer DPS thrown at me but I'm already doing it, what exactly is it supposed to achieve ? I'm not telling it's pointless because it's not the place, the person nor the way to do it.

There's things like guide or mentorship to actually do it. Mentor that are actually invested into the game could also a good way to improve the game, most of those I crossed path with when I started the game never really tried to be helpfull. I even remember being extremly cautious of those crown players everytime I ended up with one, not even understand what that icone was supposed to mean.

The only thing you've been doing with those last post is trying to prove some random game system nerd wrong over the internet.

snip

Got grilled to it, but cure spamming makes WHM design flow surprinsigly well.
It become really apparent in those infamous undergeared Bardam runs and it's easy to understand why lillies were gated between RNG at first. Having a lilly proc every cast quickly gives you much more ressources than you would ever need. Wich in turn make Divine Benison supposed drawback, the fact it'll spend all lillies without changing its effect, its actually my optimal to use it at 1 lilly as opposed to all other skills, into nothing and makes it the really weird skill it is now.

I'm super sad for the guy who made that job, it was cleverly designed but had absolutly not fit for the game it was in.

[Kethic]

Is this thread still on topic? (I suspect not)

I DPS when:

1) I get more confident with the fight (and my ability to keep everyone alive)
2) I gain trust in my party members abilities (to not take unnecessary damage)
3) When it appears to matter

Per points 1 and 2, I dps less when I feel like I need to be able to react to unexpected damage in a split second. If that means I stop dpsing entirely for a duration to keep the party comfortably alive, so be it.

Per point 3, I would not have faulted 4.0 SCH for turret healing entire fights. If the group dps is excessive to the needs of the fight, or the personal dps won't change the outcome, focusing on your primary job seems reasonable.

[Miste]

The people you're talking about mostly are not reading all this, so you could be writting 1000 pages of it it wouldn't change anything at all.

The only thing you've been doing with those last post is trying to prove some random game system nerd wrong over the internet.

I was not trying to prove you wrong... I was actually trying to understand you. Why would I ask you to clarify what you mean multiple times and in multiple posts if I was just trying to prove you wrong? I would have just said "you're wrong because reasons" and left it at that lol, but I'm pretty much done trying to understand you to be cordial, it isn't worth it.

You really have some kind of grudge against me don't you? I'm not sure what I did, but whatever. You like to reply in passive aggressive ways for no reason when I've been nothing but honest and polite with you.

The only thing I can figure out from what you posted is that you don't think the the forum discussions is the right place to encourage healers to DPS you think guides or mentors should do it (so in the end I was correct even though you tried to deny it for some reason... you don't think we should encourage DPS in these forum threads; the forums can be used for help and guides though so honestly you make no sense on why you think this way).

Well I don't agree with your opinion about the forums being the wrong place and I will continue to voice my opinions on it if I feel like it no matter if you think its pointless. I guess we can end that then.

I mean if you wanna talk about wasting time trying to prove someone wrong...you've basically made multiple large posts in the last few pages just saying the same thing over and over and then trying to deny it and then admitting it when called out on it where you can't feign ignorance anymore.

Do you really think we will stop encouraging healer DPS on the forums just because you don't think it is the right way or place for it? 4 letter easy answer: NOPE. It's worth it for the healers who may see these threads and understand that the healer design at the moment leaves room for healers to heal and also DPS to contribute to their parties.

[RopeDrink]

TLDR, the job designers didn't try to incentivise over-healing, rather they just didn't under stand how healers actually work in the end game.

Which was the only point I had a gripe with. I have no doubt about how effective lilly use can lead to some impressive results, yet let's not pretend like they're mandatory (or even necessary), at least not right now (as you say), to which there's neither a need to over-heal, nor any real sense that its (however flawed) design was some sort of incentive to do so. It makes no sense to me given we can completely forget about the system entirely and still cover all bases successfully with the base kit, thus if you ask me "Rope, you have an opportunity. Will you choose to generate some lilly's (which you generate passively by default), or shave a few pixels of health off that savage boss?" - you can guess my answer.

It's worth it for the healers who may see these threads and understand that the healer design at the moment leaves room for healers to heal and also DPS to contribute to their parties.

It's not like people are encouraging Healers to sacrifice healing responsibilities to become sub-DPS full-time, either - it is mostly aimed at those who COULD contribute, but choose not to do so out of some farcical notion that their role-description is the be-all-and-end-all of Healer play-style, in a game where you are literally force-fed ample downtime opportunities to contribute to the one thing that determines whether you will get through 99.999999% of content... Damage -- of which EVERY class, role and player can add to, however big or small the numbers may be. They're the only people I have a gripe with (at least outside of premades where such styles or requirements are customizable). I'm certain 90% of people (outside of push-groups) would be happy with a spare DoT or three. I can usually still tell when they're being stingy, sure, but that's something - and it is welcomed. The only time my blood boils is when I see opportunities thrown down the toilet by people entering content and are as good as silently demanding that they be carried (by choosing to do as little as possible for no discernable reason).

Providing resources, tips, guides, feedback or advice shouldn't be discouraged at all for any reason. It is entirely up to a person, no matter what their opinion is on the topic, whether they wish to read it or not.

[era1Ne]

TLDR, the job designers didn't try to incentivise over-healing, rather they just didn't under stand how healers actually work in the end game. It's a shame as I get pretty decent value out of Lilys in dungeons.

I think the developer team understands very well how healers or other job work. After all they got their own "monster team" to test content and clearing it. Some skills also fall so in line with the fights and i really appreciate that. Slightly off topic, but it is the same for the arena design, which can be an indicator on how to deal with mechanics. It is really amazing what the devs do and hint at with the arena and the symbols/circle/... on the ground. In my opinion they just don't design or balance the classes around good players. Thats very apparent on whm and his lilie system or the buffs for scholar in recent times. It already was the strongest healer overall, but people cried and today the class is even stronger. We might be healing with fairy/ogcd most of the time, but many healers still aren't for various reason and for them lilies (whm) or shields (sch) for that matter have more value.

[Vyriah]

snip

I have no grudge against anyone, I don't even know any of you here. The only thing I did was defend my point.
You just popped out of nowhere to nitpick at my messsage, I'm actually just answering all your accusation for something like 2 pages now. So In the end you're doing whatever you want, yes. That won't stop either from saying it's pointless, and it won't work and will just antagonize people into doing the same thing. Once again, look where we get. Do you really think anyone reading that will be conviced that anything outside "two people seem to argue over the internet". We could read our last few message without barely understanding what's the matter in this discussion.
That's why I keep saying going after the persons themself means nothing.

I'm pretty sure that discussion should have ended long ago. What I was telling in my previous post was that random person over the internet is less important that what's written in the post itself.

snip

The problem could exactly be the fact that different team works on different things at different time. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that raid bosses were designed early so it possible that SB content wasn't actually fully tuned to the changes. that could explain really weird things like ExDeath casting doom completly randomly at the staet of the fight no apparent reason than forcing healer to have Esuna.

SCH was without any single doubt the weakest healer at SB lunch and not taking into account that bane nerf and the new cross-class system stripped them of all AoE damage possibilities is the kind of miss you really can't do if you really understand how the class is played. I don't think it's a coicidence either that it was buffed exactly everytime a new more difficult content got out.

But it's hard to miss the fact that WHM kits rely on constant single target damage to heal, something that regen wouldn't handme, and this isn't something frequent at all in FF XIV. It looks like it needs something the good old "you can't do this alone so everything hit like a boat" formula.

[Cynfael]

I think the developer team understands very well how healers or other job work. After all they got their own "monster team" to test content and clearing it.

While I generally respect the care and skill that goes into FFXIV, the dev team has demonstrated that they do not understand certain aspects of gameplay and job balance as well as their full-time play testers (i.e. the community).

You don’t actually need to be very good to clear content; you simply need to be able to memorize an encounter and build a limited mental flow chart (totally by design, since they want anyone to be able to clear with enough practice).