Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Truvy]

The solution might be in the game itself. I'm more of a fan of them finding a way to smooth BLM out a bit to make it more appealing in Party Play...but if the content/progression/turns were to say "not allow raises" or produce monsters that are particularly weak to magic attacks vs physical ones....BLM would retain a spot in most parties. As i think about it, i'd love to see 'no raise' fights ought there. Force the Tanks/Healers to really push their limits and combine this with some DPS checks in the fights with weaker mobs taking more from Magic attacks could all be good for BLM (and the game as a whole).

Playing WHM or SCH....while I don't mind doing DPS throughout a fight...it be a whole lot more exciting to have a fight that demanded I do 100% healing and managing that throughout. Hate having to play as a mini-BLM as a healer.

[Claviusnex]

Summoner has Resurrection because of a coding fluke, it'd be entirely justified to remove it. Not to mention Summoner is now top DPS without counting their rDPS contribution and they now have very large amounts of mobility and the class has also been simplified quite a bit, do they really need a Raise with 0 downside too?

To paraphrase my previous post Resurrection is not an action that suddenly makes SMN a raise dispenser. It has a high cost to DPS whether used with or without Swiftcast. It also has a high MP cost. Raising a dead party member is a last ditch action because there is no one left to do it. Also because it frequently is needed when Swiftcast is on CD your looking at 7.5 seconds cast time if you are lucky and don't have to move. The belief that it is the main action that brings the utility of a SMN to raids is incorrect. What makes the SMN desirable over BLM at this time is its mobility, very good DPS, group pet buffs and Devotion buff. Adding the ability to raise to the BLM skill set, if it is truly being left behind, will do nothing to increase its desirability. What the BLM needs to be desirable is to be able to bring better DPS, mobility and some type of a group buff. I'm even willing consider that the SMN might need some type of nerf or rebalance back towards DoTs and away from immediate damage. Changes like this would bring things back towards cross job balance more than trying to shoehorn in raise just for the sake of having it.

[dinnertime]

I'm even willing consider that the SMN might need some type of nerf or rebalance back towards DoTs and away from immediate damage.

To be honest I don't think it needs one. The other 2 casters have a lot of problems and nerfing SMN to their level isn't the best solution.
SMN is also the only caster right now that "breaks" the physical DPS meta. What we need is more of that actually, and balance it where magic and physical are both "viable". Not that it isn't but you know how it is.

[Sunako]

Ppl still want mch over smn because only what ppl care is their own personal dps. Not group overall dps.

[Ceallach]

Omega exists outside of our dimension that doesn't mean the void.
Gilgamesh has nothing to do with the void
Hildibrand's questline was a joke, it's been stated

As far as FINAL FANTASY XIV is concerned, we know Omega is extraterrestrial at least. Gilgamesh has everything to do with the Void, considering Exdeath banished him there, and that's why he's able to appear in other FINAL FANTASY games, including this one. Hildibrand may be a joke, but if it's in the game, it's canon.

This whole lore debate continues to be a side-show.

I can't tell if this is meant to be insulting or not. You do realize lore is more than half the reason we have a game to start with instead of a calendar, right?

Raise alone will not make BLM attractive, certainly, but with additional mobility/damage/"utility" that they plan in the near future, yes it will.

The statement instead should be "NOT giving Raise will not make BLM attractive ENOUGH especially when it comes to progression", in my opinion. And in Sfia's, see also: his anecdote about "raw damage" vs. tools.

And again, call me a broken record, but it is far better to have and not need than need and not have, and even a 180s recast is meaningful if both your healers hit the floor, at least compared to the current situation, which is nil (again, we do not want another rez dispenser).

Maybe to you and a small handful of other people, but I for one would never pick up my black mage again if we got a Raise variant. I might even cancel my subscription. That would be a huge slap in the face.

Again call me a broken record but both healers falling to the floor should be a failure condition of the game and not something you can recover from in any easy way.

Raise should not become the alluring trait of the caster role.

I agree with this.

I think we should accept that we are not great for progression due to how the class is designed, even if we get a res and better mobility I can guarantee we are not going to be as good at ressing as the other casters and we are not going to be as mobile as well, meaning for blind, hardcore progression we'll always be at least a little behind.

However if having a BLM on the party means the group has a higher damage potential people will accept and be willing to work with us, because of how important damage is in this game, this is also the reason why I think we should push for offensive utility, as it makes us much more wanted in a group.

I think this is what people like Llugen fail to understand out of selfishness.

No, I won't, because you know what that means? That means playing SMN or RDM for progression, and that's basically end-of-story. See also: let the RDMs be and let the BLMs be anecdote. This concept may not affect you, or many, but it definitely does affect me/many others. "Just go back to BLM after we have it cleared!" I can hear it now.

I just don't want to be stuck playing RDM/SMN again, man. Or worse yet, BRD.

The developers do their best to balance DPS checks to be doable by at least MOST sensible standard comps, so you can't justify "BLM 'raw damage' is 'required' for this check" by that logic alone, plus at the highest-end of progression, it's the utility classes that stack together for the best total GROUP damage, not individual classes. See also: utility IS damage anecdote.

Worded differently, a "selfish DPS" class will shine when the player on the class is solid but the rest of the party is not as skilled at the game, particularly with AST feeding/DRG tethering, however in more skilled groups (read: high-end progression), focus on one player is less valuable and instead it's the total group damage that needs the most consideration (read: sacrificing/clipping ONE GCD to bring up a dead player is a SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER group damage loss than having a player remain dead for a long period).

And @Remedi: I'm well aware of your stance on it, but the "bottom line" is more than likely going to be that they aren't going to remove rez dispenser/SMN Resurrection, so yep, here we still are. I don't think the following can be understated:

Raise already IS an alluring trait of the caster role, which is why this thread exists in the first place.

Red mage as a Verraise dispenser is a bad idea without Lucid Dreaming. A good red mage should only get the healers and maybe a tank back on their feet, and only with Lucid Dreaming available. Also, you keep assuming that changes to the game won't affect every single player of that game, which is some of the worst logic I've seen in a long time. STOP ASSUMING WHAT WILL AFFECT WHOM.

Also for the last time, STOP TELLING PEOPLE YOU'RE FORCED TO PLAY SOMETHING WHEN YOU AREN'T! That's stupid! No one forces you to play this game. No one forces you to play a certain job. If your static doesn't like you playing black mage, find a new static. If you'd rather be useful, then put up with the fact black mage isn't blue mage and therefore can't do literally everything in the game. You can't have it both ways!

Please stop espousing the high utility RDM thing, nobody wants Embolden to be the easy version of Trick Attack which means NIN and RDM get cemented into comps which isn't healthy for game balance and then we have to start the cycle all over again. I don't really want to get into a detailed bit about Vercure since to be frank I think you're overemphasizing its usefulness but I'll agree Verraise doesn't really need to be dualcasted since I'm on Remedi's side where Raise is trivializing content.

Edit: Additionally I think it'd be completely justified at this point if they found a way to remove Resurrection from SMN, it's not like they don't have the technological capability, they could just give SMN a trait that switches it to Sustain or something.

Eh, I don't think removing Resurrection from summoner is a good idea. Miasma II is already scholar-only now, and a summoner has to use Swiftcast in order to avoid losing more than 130 potency just to cast Resurrection. Without Swiftcast, a summoner casting Resurrection is too costly to his personal DPS, and black mage would just straight-up not have a choice but to lose DPS because of Swiftcast's use as a movement tool for them. If Resurrection is made exclusive to arcanist and/or scholar, though, I'd want a Phoenix summon for summoner.

Summoner has Resurrection because of a coding fluke, it'd be entirely justified to remove it. Not to mention Summoner is now top DPS without counting their rDPS contribution and they now have very large amounts of mobility and the class has also been simplified quite a bit, do they really need a Raise with 0 downside too?

Um, no. If it were a coding fluke, it would have been fixed a long time ago.

To paraphrase my previous post Resurrection is not an action that suddenly makes SMN a raise dispenser. It has a high cost to DPS whether used with or without Swiftcast. It also has a high MP cost. Raising a dead party member is a last ditch action because there is no one left to do it. Also because it frequently is needed when Swiftcast is on CD your looking at 7.5 seconds cast time if you are lucky and don't have to move. The belief that it is the main action that brings the utility of a SMN to raids is incorrect. What makes the SMN desirable over BLM at this time is its mobility, very good DPS, group pet buffs and Devotion buff. Adding the ability to raise to the BLM skill set, if it is truly being left behind, will do nothing to increase its desirability. What the BLM needs to be desirable is to be able to bring better DPS, mobility and some type of a group buff. I'm even willing consider that the SMN might need some type of nerf or rebalance back towards DoTs and away from immediate damage. Changes like this would bring things back towards cross job balance more than trying to shoehorn in raise just for the sake of having it.

THANK YOU! Too bad people like Llugen won't listen to us.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

To paraphrase my previous post Resurrection is not an action that suddenly makes SMN a raise dispenser. It has a high cost to DPS whether used with or without Swiftcast. It also has a high MP cost. Raising a dead party member is a last ditch action because there is no one left to do it. Also because it frequently is needed when Swiftcast is on CD your looking at 7.5 seconds cast time if you are lucky and don't have to move. The belief that it is the main action that brings the utility of a SMN to raids is incorrect. What makes the SMN desirable over BLM at this time is its mobility, very good DPS, group pet buffs and Devotion buff. Adding the ability to raise to the BLM skill set, if it is truly being left behind, will do nothing to increase its desirability. What the BLM needs to be desirable is to be able to bring better DPS, mobility and some type of a group buff. I'm even willing consider that the SMN might need some type of nerf or rebalance back towards DoTs and away from immediate damage. Changes like this would bring things back towards cross job balance more than trying to shoehorn in raise just for the sake of having it.

No it's not, they just aren't affected nearly as much as an any other caster since they have built in MP recovery and MP is no longer relevant to Summoners damage. It has 66% less cost to DPS comparatively used with or without Swiftcast since Summoner has so much passive damage. Yes that belief that Raise is the main attraction of SMN is incorrect, but it's icing on the cake along with those other things you listed. I don't believe Raise on its own would make BLM attractive either, I've said this previously. They desperately need damage boosts and QoL fixes I agree, and if they got the necessary ones a Raise wouldn't even be necessary, but supposing they don't it means BLM is back on the shelf for another raid tier, which isn't fun. Player enjoyment and fun (e.g. play how you want to play) should be prioritized a bit more over lore worship for the sake of it. Raise itself is a group buff, it returns a player to the battlefield, meaning you either get a tank back, a healer back (losing either of these is most likely a wipe), or around 4000 more DPS you wouldn't otherwise have without it. Nobody believes SMN is a Raise Dispenser, that term is an 'affectionate' euphemism for Red Mage.

Ceallach a coding fluke isn't something that necessarily gets fixed immediately. Pretty much the reason SMN has Resurrection is because ACN needed it so SCH would have it. Plus I mean I get the importance of lore to a point, we had a very very large argument about it a while ago. But it's also a game, made for fun and enjoyment, the fact that people avoid taking their favorite class to progression outside of a static doesn't sound fun at all, it sounds very unfun. And I don't necessarily believe giving BLM a Raise variant is the answer, they could give them a powerful party wide defensive buff perhaps, I think someone mentioned group Manaward somewhere. There are a lot of things they could do within the lore as well, so I'd rather argue about what fun, creative group utility we could give to BLM than make a feckless waste about whether or not we should exclude a certain type of group utility. Plainly, I'd rather discuss ideas than discuss whether or not we should have an idea.


For example,

Aetherial Concentration (Trait): While your Ley Lines are active, your party regains MP (potency something something, close to Refresh maybe) while you're in Umbral Ice. While you're in Astral Fire your party does 1-2% more damage for each stack of Astral Fire you have.

[Cynfael]

I can't tell if this is meant to be insulting or not. You do realize lore is more than half the reason we have a game to start with instead of a calendar, right?

It was meant to be an observation on how the back-and-forth over lore is largely a distraction from gameplay discussion. This lore tangent is horribly unproductive and painful to follow since absolutely no one appears to be gaining any ground as far as convincing others of their viewpoint.

Again, it's not to say that lore isn't an important part of the experience; however, interpretation of lore can vary significantly from player to player, and lore in a fantasy setting is more easily malleable than some might imagine. Not only is this a video game that requires constant tweaking and balancing, the Final Fantasy franchise itself is an absurdly vast kitchen sink of fantasy and sci-fi tropes that reinvents itself with each new incarnation, recycling some old elements and introducing new ones.

To reiterate my earlier point, lore is what I would suggest gets debated after the primary consideration of whether or not players want BLM to have a resurrection-type skill and/or whether they believe it is necessary at this point that they have it.

If your answer is no either or both of those questions, chances are good that the lore issue is moot. Obviously not everyone shares that opinion, but that's my current mindset.

[Remedi]

The lore of the franchise can be considered malleable but BLM has been constant in not having access to any raise or restorative spell and his elemental spells and garb are as iconic to the franchise as the chocobos, moogles, tonberries etc.
FF has created some tropes by itself and the moment they stray from it they get blasted to oblivion by the fanbase.

When ppl see a BLM they can expect what kind of spells they'll have access to and they can imagine their gamestyle, the same happens with other jobs, that's also the reason why SMN are very vocal about SMN not feeling like traditional FF SMN.
Ppl play this game expecting it to be a FF game and expect jobs to play in a similar manner and that is true for every game, tropes are needed to give you an idea of what a class can do, they play a part in making you choose what to play because by a simple name you know what to expect more or less.

[LeeraSorlan]

they should just turn leylines into an aoe that everyone can use.Switching to speed for the physical variant too ofc. just a flat speed boost for all jobs.
Range would need to be bigger ofc, but i think itd be neat

Might have issues with quad stacking leylines for mega speed that theyd need to balance out, but ykno.

[Llugen]

Or just saying they could ditch this ridiculous way of thinking that a job that offers zero utility to the group should only do a tiny bit more dmg and more often than not the same as jobs that do offer utility.

PREACHHHHH

Ppl still want mch over smn because only what ppl care is their own personal dps. Not group overall dps.

So, every "one person" caring about their DPS being higher IS group DPS. MCH contributes more group damage and almost as much personal damage, so the total number is higher (not to mention refresh/tactician/dismantle).

....Not only is this a video game that requires constant tweaking and balancing, the Final Fantasy franchise itself is an absurdly vast kitchen sink of fantasy and sci-fi tropes that reinvents itself with each new incarnation, recycling some old elements and introducing new ones....

Someone give this man a medal for taking like four sentences to explain what I've been trying to say in the last thirty pages.

Ppl play this game expecting it to be a FF game and expect jobs to play in a similar manner

That STILL doesn't mean that the job can't "play in a similar manner", that all depends on implementation. Besides, by this logic, though RDM has always had access to white magic, it's unprecedented for the job to be the "go-to rez dispenser" at such a ridiculously high degree (not to mention access to the most powerful magic would have been off-limits (Verflare, Verholy)).

Not sure that the RDMs at large particularly appreciate this, it's just enormously helpful so it's taken in stride.



Honestly, it's akin to what you said in the DRG heavy thrust on the job gauge thread, it wouldn't even affect probably half the playerbase but the other half would be infinitely grateful for it.