Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Llugen]

I mean, that's a pretty weak argument, though. Mana Shift is not as good as Refresh, but it's still significantly helpful.


As an aside, I was significantly amazed that no one else apparently foresaw how overpowered rez dispensing would be on RDM. I even asked it in a "Mondays with Mister Happy" Q&A and he was like "nah I don't see how that's overpowered" and then savage came out and then he was like "gracious yes this is super overpowered". Roflcopter goes swswsw


Furthermore, ALL of my arguments are made with regard to role balance, and the composition will (should) always be 2 melee 1 ranged 1 caster, so all that is moot. This is with regard to "high-end" prog, meaning those who are pushing server/world progression. Triple melee or double ranged for "casual" prog is fine in theory, but that's not where the balance needs to be addressed.



Shadewalker should get some careful consideration, in my opinion, just because of how entrenched NIN is in the meta because of it. Personally I think the melee role should get its own mini-shirk that can only be used on the current main tank as an enmity dump tool, but to say that all classes will clamor for Trick Attack is a bit of a stretch. Each brings its own unique utility (we can talk about how SAM damage needs a boost as well, or needs its own utility) that functions the same (read: damage, not "defensive", save for Mantra, but lemayo).


Damage will never outweigh Raise as a "defensive utility" because it's NOT defensive utility. Therefore it either belongs completely on the caster role or completely NOT on the caster role. You think the latter, I think the former (since the devs also seem to think that raise is important as a caster ability). I agree that not every "request" should simply be abdicated by the balance team, but through everything I/we have pointed out in this thread, none of the others make even a lick of sense except this one.

And I'll give my broken-record response again, no one ever insinuated that Raise alone will fix... blah blah blah....

[Remedi]

If they ever thought it as a caster ability it would've been on the role actions. It isn't.
The only reason why RDM had Verraise is for lore reasons and class favor and the only reason SMN has it is because SCH has to have it at lower levels otherwise they won't have access to it.
And if a new job will come for the role it won't have raise not to mention again they were adamant about BLM NOT having it. I can't really call them considering raise as anything more than gimmick considering how they didn't saw what would've been the effects of lowering R3 costs to SMN.

Mana shift is not a significant help is garbage when you compare it to refresh btw.
It's single target, it restores 3k or so MP compared to the around 5k of refresh, it requires a target switch, it requires you to have the MP and you have to sacrifice them to get the effect.
Meanwhile refresh has no drawbacks at all

Also I think everyone gets that you don't insinuate that raise alone will fix everything, at least for my part I think that it's not what we need as a job AND as a role
The fix needs to come in other places

[Llugen]

"when you compare it to Refresh" yes it is garbage, this is all the more reason why the meta is currently double ranged, but compared to NOTHING, it sure is helpful.

The fix *also needs to come in other places. Definitely agreed. But once again, whether or not the developers "intended" Raise to have such reliance is irrelevant; all that matters is the emphasis that the playerbase puts on defensive/recovery utility, particularly for the sake of progression. This will DIRECTLY translate into "bring SMN/RDM for progression and you can go back to BLM after", which is exactly what I do not want, and I don't think you (or many) want it either.




Again, if they feel like removing it, or at least nerfing it down a few notches (Remove Resurrection from SMN completely, remove Dualcast trait from Vercure and Verraise and increase their MP cost enough to actually be hampering so the RDM cannot even use two slowcasted back to back) so that the precedent for it is significantly lower, then the role would become balanced enough. This would remove the "alluring trait" of Raise on RDM/SMN, which would make their main draw be damage utility again, not recovery tools.

Note how this would create a situation where BLM is "high damage and low (zero) party utility", SMN is "moderate damage and moderate party utility", and RDM is "low damage and high party utility (buff embolden plz) including recovery tools in an emergency and at great cost".

This is what balance looks like. Or at least, by Square Enix's own logic.

[Remedi]

That thought should tell you that the existance of it is a problem that should be corrected not spread.

I repeat when something is considered so strong that you are shafted without it, it means that it HAS to be nerfed not spread

BTW the same goes to raiding tool, there's a line that the community should not cross

[Llugen]

I mean, as I've said a number of times now, I find that statement logical and "agree" except that I just think that it's a losing battle.

I legitimately think we have a better chance at helping the dev team understand that BLM deserves Raise for role balance than we do helping the dev team understand that Raise should be removed completely from SMN and nerfed on RDM. "Lore reasons" and playstyle abound for RDM, and the ACN trap for SMN. Lore can be molded into something meaningful for BLM, however; we just need to give them a nudge.




Plus, as an aside, the ability to recover meaningfully is part of why content is being cleared "faster" and people aren't getting as burned out as fast on it (Gordias), so if "endurance of progression" matters at all, then there's something to consider for why we should spread recovery tools and not remove them.

Furthermore, it helps justify their vision for even longer fights. Consider that Turn 9 Savage and Turn 7 Savage were only 12 minutes and 9 minutes long respectively, while Unending Coil is a whopping 18 minutes. Expecting both your healers not to die within 1.5-2 times the fight duration with even tougher strings of mechanics that need to be executed perfectly seems like a decent enough reason why recovery tools are justifiable on casters in 4.XX vs how it was in 2.XX.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Please stop espousing the high utility RDM thing, nobody wants Embolden to be the easy version of Trick Attack which means NIN and RDM get cemented into comps which isn't healthy for game balance and then we have to start the cycle all over again. I don't really want to get into a detailed bit about Vercure since to be frank I think you're overemphasizing its usefulness but I'll agree Verraise doesn't really need to be dualcasted since I'm on Remedi's side where Raise is trivializing content.

Edit: Additionally I think it'd be completely justified at this point if they found a way to remove Resurrection from SMN, it's not like they don't have the technological capability, they could just give SMN a trait that switches it to Sustain or something.

[Kurando]

Edit: Additionally I think it'd be completely justified at this point if they found a way to remove Resurrection from SMN, it's not like they don't have the technological capability, they could just give SMN a trait that switches it to Sustain or something.

Sustain is an Arcanist action and not SMN exclusive. Yes SCH doesn't need it as much as SMN, but as a pet class ACN still requires it. Removing Resurrection at this stage would not be justified because it would only be done to please people such as those in favour of this thread, and would not actually represent the majority who think it's fine or have no real problem with it. There is there also nothing to trait Rez in to anyway, SMN has a balanced skillset (aside from Physick).

In both ARR and HW, SMN having rez was never a problem and it only since SB dropped and RDM also has Raise that this a problem for some. Therefore limit RDM useage of it could slowly bring some balance, on top of buffing BLM damage - which is the main concern here - and no amount of asking for Rez changes will fix that.

[Remedi]

The problem with raise and SB is that with the removal of the health reduction now beign raised in not as problematic as before as such RDM is not really the culptit per se.
It more the fact that SE did not considert the effects of raise when they made some changes to the jobs.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Summoner has Resurrection because of a coding fluke, it'd be entirely justified to remove it. Not to mention Summoner is now top DPS without counting their rDPS contribution and they now have very large amounts of mobility and the class has also been simplified quite a bit, do they really need a Raise with 0 downside too?

[dinnertime]

No, they don't, but I see no reason to remove it from SMN either. It's harmless.