Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[winsock]

Are...you trying to insinuate that everyone who plays poorly must be doing so because they are young?

^ sigh, is it possible to have an discussion on the forum without assuming that someone who disagrees is at the extreme opposite position?
Sarcasm: Are you saying we should treat all poor performers like lazy adult vets?!?!!

All I am saying, is that before you hold someone accountable for "lazy play", make sure you have evidence that they are actually engaging in lazy play. For example, you had mentioned that one of the datapoints you distinguish between laziness and sincere effort is level. The value of "level" is not a value that can be used to determine this whatsoever, so it isn't fair to use that data-point when making this determination.

If you have no evidence, you are just guessing. You agreed earlier that we should be tolerant of people who are poor solely due to lack of knowledge. However, "your feeling about them" is a poor standard to be used to distinguish between the two because you cant realistically know when you've crossed the line. And if you can't tell whether or not you've crossed the line, how do you hold yourself accountable?

[MoroMurasaki]

And if you can't tell whether or not you've crossed the line, how do you hold yourself accountable?

I understand this is directed at HyoMin but I can't not answer such a loaded, rhetorical question.

First off with effort being a measure of laziness (or lack thereof) I make sure to always put in the amount of effort I'd require of a party member or more. I try my best with every dungeon.

In terms of measuring this in others all you need is basic human interaction. The timeline looks something like this...

See a player performing exceedingly poorly.
Make suggestions as to how they can improve.
Gague their reaction to said advice.

Did they acknowledge that advice in chat? Did they start to apply that advice to their playing? If so awesome, problem solved. If not I assume they don't have interest in improving.

I don't see why this is such a hard thing to understand.

[winsock]

Gague their reaction to said advice.

Did they acknowledge that advice in chat? Did they start to apply that advice to their playing? If so awesome, problem solved. If not I assume they don't have interest in improving.

I don't see why this is such a hard thing to understand.

You don't see it, because you don't realize that have switched topics altogether.

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

For example, say a DPS refuses to AoE DPS despite the a request from the party. When the DPS is kicked, they are kicked because they are unwilling to work with the party. It's not really a performance issue.

For the sake of being thorough, let's say a DPS accepts the request to AoE. You said if they do take the advice, it's "awesome, problem solved"; however let's refocus this on performance, what if despite accepting the advice they are performing poorly? For example, maybe it's a BLM and their AoE rotation is incorrect. You give them advice telling them what the rotation is, but they are screwing it up for one reason or another, maybe just lack of practice. What do you do?

[Jijifli]

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

Actually, my vent was on both. People who have extremely poor performance, levels of which a game should not ever allow without others carrying, AND not taking any advice, either ignoring it entirely, or attacking the person giving advice like it was of the greatest insult.

As for the BLM example you have, I'd rather a freeze BLM aoe spam over no aoe spam. Freeze on 7 targets is probably doing more than Blizzard 1.

[winsock]

Actually, my vent was on both. People who have extremely poor performance, levels of which a game should not ever allow without others carrying, AND not taking any advice, either ignoring it entirely, or attacking the person giving advice like it was of the greatest insult.

As for the BLM example you have, I'd rather a freeze BLM aoe spam over no aoe spam. Freeze on 7 targets is probably doing more than Blizzard 1.

I got to say, maybe i misinterpreted the purpose of your thread. Could you clarify something for me?

In your op, you say:
"I'm talking about the BLM that spams Thunder."
"The WAR that presses only Butcher's Block"

Why do you feel a BLM spamming Freeze is okay, especially considering the two examples above are not? Personally, if I am a grouped with a BLM that spams freeze and/or thunder, I would make an attempt at guiding them into a proper rotation.

[MoroMurasaki]

You don't see it, because you don't realize that have switched topics altogether.

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

You're the one who has veered the thread in this direction by questioning HyoMin on how she can measure the effort of a given player because in her (and many other people's) opinion poor play stemming from laziness/being unwilling to learn is many times worse than poor play stemming from inexperience/innocent mistakes.

I have suggested that players who's issues stem from inexperience but are willing to lean aren't lazy, they think they're putting in the same effort everyone else is. These players, when confronted with a way to improve, tend to respond favorably or at least give it a try.

Players who are lazy (so, the ones I would say I don't have time or sympathy for) don't respond favorably to cretique because in general they know what they're doing is enough to not die more often than not and that's enough for them.

You (winsock) are literally the one to bring us to this series of questions. You want to know what kind of poor play is deemed unacceptable by many participants in this thread, I've told you. You want to know how such play can ve separared from simple new players still learning, I've told you.

Now on the PUG issue my only comment is that PUGs are for everyone and if that means you get kicked because you're a no AoE BLM or a no DPS healer or a tank who doesn't mitigate... too bad? Just like you guys can tell us to join PF if we want competent party members I challenge you to open PFs for sub-par runs.

Sure, if you actually get a bunch of bottom of the barrel players you likely won't clear anything. That's why queuing in DF is great for poor players. They might get someone like Sebazy as their cohealer for a trial and literally not have to do anything at all. The issue here is that while 'elitists' (lol, I can't believe I'm starting to actually identify with that term) can form groups for likeminded individuals and clear content that way if we did so exclusively there would be no one in the DF pool to carry the very poor players through their MSQ roadblocks like Nidhogg and Shinryu.

This thread is a rant thread and ranting is healthy sometimes. If people want to complain a bit because they feel overextended trying to cover up for bads... Okay? What's the problem?

To answer the direct question at the end of your post if I found myself in that situation I would apologize for giving unclear advice and clarify what I meant. I don't really give that sort of advice, I don't just throw out vague skill names and hope it gets the point across, but this isn't really related to the topic at hand so I digress.

[Jijifli]

This thread is a rant thread and ranting is healthy sometimes.

My ranting here honestly did help me feel less like an exploding orange and more calmed. Yes, ranting can be be better for health than just bottling it in until it explodes. Part of my posting this was to try and make sure I didn't explode on the next person to fit the extreme requirement. Let some steam out before I made a huge mistake and lose my account over it, you know?