Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Jijifli]

You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink, but you can decide how you respond to it. Have you referred those people to the Hall of the Novice? Have you tried to explain in the Hall's stead? Or do you just expect everyone to start the game with your current level of skill and experience? People here should keep things in proportion and stop taking responsibility for the literal thousands of other players who don't play by their standards. 'This is a game' works in two ways - one, stop demanding perfection from strangers on the internet who won't care as much as you do because it's a game and they're entitled not to care about it, you don't pay their sub. Two, stop demanding perfection on a frigging game with strangers on the internet, love yourself a little bit more.

I literally said in my Disclaimer I don't expect perfection. Nobody should.

I have mentioned the Hall to plenty of people. A few have thanked me for it, but plenty more called me an elitist because I thought the hall would help them.

[RiyahArp]

This whole thread was talking about basics. Expecting a healer to heal, a tank to tank, and a DPS to try to do damage..... is taking the game too seriously and therefore making it out to be a job?

Oh please...just stop this nonsense. You're gonna drive me to another existential crisis.

And people do the basics fine. If they don't, you'd be all complaining about how half of your expert runs end in failure, or how you have to do everything in statics because you can't even trust the duty finder for a simple leveling roulette. People really overrate how many bad players there are, and how often they show up in normal play. My guess is that the OP is tired of yet another farm party wiping, probably shinryu ex.

[Jijifli]

And people do the basics fine. If they don't, you'd be all complaining about how half of your expert runs end in failure, or how you have to do everything in statics because you can't even trust the duty finder for a simple leveling roulette. People really overrate how many bad players there are, and how often they show up in normal play. My guess is that the OP is tired of yet another farm party wiping, probably shinryu ex.

I tank and heal my Expert. Imagine having to stop and wait for Living Dead because your healer can't heal properly if I dare DRK. Or if I Dare PLD with my main, have to Clemency myself because the healer refuses to heal me. Imagine runs taking 40+ minutes because your dps are basically auto attacking and nothing else. Or when I'm healing on AST or SCH, tanks that decide they want to be the Spell Speed PLD with no defensive abilities forcing me to spam Benefic II to keep them steady in large pulls. If they understood basics, this wouldn't happen, and part of my issue is trying to figure out how people make it this far?

[F_Maximillian]

Sigh...look, once you start obsessing over shoddy play and wondering why others aren't pulling their weight, you start viewing the game as a job. You invest way too much significance into it and get bothered way too much by the actions of others, in a way you simply shouldn't as a game. When I play this game, most of the time things go fine. I do all my content ok in a decent timeframe, I rarely see any real trolls, and probably the most issues I have is with PvP, but a lot of that is due to how the developer designs content. If they don't go fine...well this is a game, people aren't going to always be good, and at worst i'm out ten minutes once every 100 tries when I leave duty.

But because for a lot of people this game becomes a job, they end up just taking everything so serious even beyond what they should. You see it in Overwatch too, people so concerned with how others act because that simple end of season number is so vital to them that they create these huge myths of bad play and demonize sectors of the playerbase to deal with the stress of their job. There's some extent of developer blame as well...you don't throw random people of varying skill levels together to require high levels of coordination and play.

But ugh, I've seen years of this kind of griping. And it's dumb. People's solution to this is essentially to make the game not fun enough as to drive bad players out through game design and training. They tried that in FFXI, and yeah, a lot of people left as early as valkurm dunes. Not sure why that would work here.

And it didn't solve anything either, people griped as much there, and they completed stuff a lot less to boot.

FFXIV is one of my favorite games, one of the few that I play in my free time. I've never taken it as a job and I don't see how anyone could see it as a job unless they're a streamer who makes their living off of playing it. I don't get paid to login, I don't have to drag myself there every day I'm supposed to be there even if I feel like crap, I don't have to set an alarm I despise every morning to wake up for it, I don't have people above me constantly breathing down my neck. I can't put FFXIV on my resume nor can I expect any career growth from it. I wonder how people define a job if it doesn't fit into that criteria? What separates a job from a game to people who make arguments like these? There are some players who lash out against whole populations of the playerbase but the majority of people in this thread alone that agree with the OP aren't like that. It has nothing to do with investing significance into the actions of others, it's asking for a basic level of decency and respect from someone who willingly joins a cooperative activity nobody is forcing them to engage in. I've never expected more than basic competence when I queue up for something from roulettes. All I expect is that people put in some sort of effort to show that they actually are aware that there's real people behind the other pixels on their screen who are depending on them to contribute a reasonable amount to the endeavor. Why do you people have such an obsession with labeling that line of thought as "work"? Life isn't so black and white that everything is sorted into "game" or "job", it's a very narrow mindset to have..

Some ppl value their time because if they had more of it they could spend even more time ranting about it. That's what I'm understanding from this thread.

You either didn't read it well enough or came into it with a jaded mindset that I find alot of players I run into doing poorly in duty finder have, that everyone is an elitist out to scrutinize them and minmax every second of their time spent in the game. Not everyone is some elitist boogyman hiding behind a corner waiting to interrogate you on why you're doing .3 dps lower than you should be, contrary to what some people in this thread may think. It kind of borders on paranoia if you feel like everyone who expects people to bring reasonable contribution to the table is an elitist looking for reasons to rant. If people would just be a bit more considerate of the people they get matched with there wouldn't be any people ranting about it because there would be nothing to rant about.

And people do the basics fine. If they don't, you'd be all complaining about how half of your expert runs end in failure, or how you have to do everything in statics because you can't even trust the duty finder for a simple leveling roulette. People really overrate how many bad players there are, and how often they show up in normal play. My guess is that the OP is tired of yet another farm party wiping, probably shinryu ex.

You sincerely underestimate the ability of one or two good players to drag a horribly subpar party through content. A good healer can compensate for a tank that can't hold aggro to save their life (or their party member's lives for that matter) and can make up for damage that a poorly playing dps isn't doing, for example. This game is designed that most content is harder to fail than it is to clear, because if it wasn't then the majority of the playerbase would struggle to even get through the story. Then these threads about people underperforming would be replaced with threads demanding content be accessible because "my sub" and "why should I have to play this game like a "job" to progress".

[Cakekizyy]

So would you stay to the end of each dungeon if it needs the whole time every single run? Would you be alright if you need over 120 (?) minutes for each 24 man raid clear every single time no matter how old it is? Because as long as they clear at the end (even with just 5 sec left) its not wasted time?

I would be fine with it. I enter any duty with assumption it could take full time. Anything less is a bonus to me.

[RiyahArp]

I tank and heal my Expert. Imagine having to stop and wait for Living Dead because your healer can't heal properly if I dare DRK.?

As of this time, I have all but 3 jobs at 70. I've played for about 3 years I think, and I had all 60s by the end of HW. Apart from basic "learning the content" that happens during the first week or two of a patch, I've not seen anywhere near the level of "being bad" people keep complaining about. I haven't abandoned leveling content once, unless someone says "nope aurum vale" and leaves at start. People are thinking the rare cases of being bad are so much worse and frequent than they really are.

The real subjects that tend to come up with this tend to be EX-level pugs. People complain because they can't find decent farm parties, or if the primal is hard enough, clears.

[F_Maximillian]

I would be fine with it. I enter any duty with assumption it could take full time. Anything less is a bonus to me.

I personally try not to assume the worst of people I haven't met yet. I understand that's a rare mentality to stick to in this day and age though...

As of this time, I have all but 3 jobs at 70. I've played for about 3 years I think, and I had all 60s by the end of HW. Apart from basic "learning the content" that happens during the first week or two of a patch, I've not seen anywhere near the level of "being bad" people keep complaining about. I haven't abandoned leveling content once, unless someone says "nope aurum vale" and leaves at start. People are thinking the rare cases of being bad are so much worse and frequent than they really are.

The real subjects that tend to come up with this tend to be EX-level pugs. People complain because they can't find decent farm parties, or if the primal is hard enough, clears.

Regrettably, there are things in this world that happen even though you don't see them personally.

[Krotoan]

If it's grueling and not fun, then why are you doing it? If whether or not it is fun is so dependent on your "co-workers" and not you, that's kind of a recipe for disaster, isn't it?

number one , it's an extreme case that something is torture for someone is fun for another. Let me put it another way: for some the fun is getting the runs done efficiently and quickly. Others like collecting items. There are people though that dislike both of these activities.

and I said OTHERS.. as in someone finds something fun that OTHER people might not like. It's NOT work for them, it's entertaining, engaging and fun. To a degree ANY cooperative multiplayer experience is dependent on your teammates. That's what coop is. OP said he can deal with mediocre, just not actively obstinate and deficient.

And people do the basics fine. If they don't, you'd be all complaining about how half of your expert runs end in failure, or how you have to do everything in statics because you can't even trust the duty finder for a simple leveling roulette. People really overrate how many bad players there are, and how often they show up in normal play. My guess is that the OP is tired of yet another farm party wiping, probably shinryu ex.

oh.. you didn't read the post. OK.

[Miste]

And people do the basics fine. If they don't, you'd be all complaining about how half of your expert runs end in failure, or how you have to do everything in statics because you can't even trust the duty finder for a simple leveling roulette. People really overrate how many bad players there are, and how often they show up in normal play. My guess is that the OP is tired of yet another farm party wiping, probably shinryu ex.

They don't all end in failure because people who play <20% effectiveness eventually get backpacked by others. Just the truth of the matter. Those are the players where if everyone else played at <20% like them you'd likely be unable to clear the content. So the others are picking up the slack so the group still clears.

I don't think there is as much exaggeration as you think there is. Going by my experiences over 4 years all I can say is I have seen a lot of things...things that cannot be unseen. Happens often enough where I usually worry when I have to queue for DF.

I am not talking about people not playing perfectly or anything either since no one should expect perfection, just basics at 50-70 like a tank holding hate, a healer keeping people alive most of the time, DPS who are obviously trying to do damage (IE: not just spamming one button over and over). I am a very lenient person and I don't have much expectations and my standards are quite low and yet still people have surprised me in DF often enough :/

[Jijifli]

As of this time, I have all but 3 jobs at 70. I've played for about 3 years I think, and I had all 60s by the end of HW. Apart from basic "learning the content" that happens during the first week or two of a patch, I've not seen anywhere near the level of "being bad" people keep complaining about. I haven't abandoned leveling content once, unless someone says "nope aurum vale" and leaves at start. People are thinking the rare cases of being bad are so much worse and frequent than they really are.

The real subjects that tend to come up with this tend to be EX-level pugs. People complain because they can't find decent farm parties, or if the primal is hard enough, clears.

Not stating it's every case. I'm not saying it's common. This was me ranting over how many time I've gotten it overall. I can WAY too much go give (I remember 3.1 having a bunch of VIT geared DRG's. 3.3 kept seeing WHM's, MCH's, and SMN's use knockback to throw tank and melee dps off.)

In fact, the whole reason I posted it was to rant. To get something off. I honestly was able to continue after posting this, where originally I would have just stopped bothering to queue.