Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Kaethra]

Thirty years ago, we didn't have internet, affordable computers, nor consoles that could realistically play more than two players (often not even simultaneously). Multiplayer games were played on the court, or the field of a local park (or other venue depending on location). It wasn't just us as children but our parents as well. In either case, the system worked the same.

You had players of varying skill, some good, some bad. What was important is the fact that you would play on a 'team' and try to do your best. If you weren't taking it seriously, you'd be shoved aside (in some cases, literally). If your team was trying, you were trying. It wasn't a job. 99999 times out of 100000 no one was ever going to be at a level to go pro in whatever game it was. But we still tried. Your team counted on you and you counted on them.

Sometime between then and now, it became more about the individual. What do -I- get out of it? Some of us still have that old team-set mentality. Its about completing the goal with everyone pulling for everyone else. Covering their weaknesses, enhancing their strengths. The victory goes to everyone. The loot comes second. Unfortunately many of us stick to premades and statics because many don't have that team-set mentality. They're there to get it done, whomever is grouped with them is a number and a means.

But we get derided for it. People say we play the game like a job. People call us 'hardcore' (insinuating we don't have a life outside the game). Thirty years ago my dad played basketball in his late 30s early 40s. He was very good and played his best. No pro level obviously, but one of the better ones locally. It wasn't a job for him, he had a career in the military and spent alot of time with me when he wasn't working. He had a life outside that. Just like we do now with FFXIV and other MMORPGs.

We play at a high level because we like to. Its fun. Its engaging. And most importantly we want to play as a team. Its unsettling when people don't care as much about us as we do about them. That's where the disconnect and the abrasion really is. Everyone that I have raided with, done statics with, and played at the highest levels of play for the last 16 years has NEVER derided someone over parses, NEVER tried to tell someone they are wrong, NEVER booted someone simply because they weren't 'getting it'. They have kicked people from groups who are ugly to them, to those who troll the group, or make false accusations.

No, the 'elitists' you see are bad players who are JEALOUS of real players and take it out upon those who can't carry them. They KNOW they need to be carried. They HAVE to be. They will deride, insult, and vote kick anyone who they believe is standing in their way of their own carry. THOSE are the toxic players you see. Do NOT confuse them with the rest of the top tier players who simply do their thing without a word and move on. I know people in Duty Finder aren't at my level. So what? They do as they can.

If they care, they get better as much as they can. If they don't care, they turn toxic.

But don't confuse toxicity and claims of being great as actually being good at the game. One of the important facets of BEING good is working as a team. And playing the hand your dealt. And by the way, if you are one of those players that call it a job to be decent as an excuse to be less than mediocre.. you're no different than those toxic players claiming to be good. You're not just being bad at the game, you're just being a bad person. Which is far worse.

[Joe777]

The short answer OP is some people cheese their way up, be it with Tales of Adventure or PotD and PvP grinding. It is too easy to get to 70 without actually learning your job, which is not really a good thing but SE supports letting people max out quickly (many games nowadays do actually, but usually for the sake of PvP... what's your excuse SE?).

This is of course assuming they aren't stupid and/or trolling.

[winsock]

Spare me your attempts at being clever. You haven't once given a solid answer or rebuttal to anything someone here has said.

I beg to differ.

Your claim was that a group of "sports-loving guys" would know the basics of how to play the sport they loved.
My counter-point was that not all polo fans know the basics of riding a horse.

^ your claim was not thought out properly. It was not a solid point. It crumbles depending on the sport. You cant defend your point, so you attack me directly, talk down to me, and then tell me am acting childish lol.

My points were valid.
Your premise was not an accurate representation of the pool of players in the duty finder. At best, this is a pool group of people who want to clear XYZ content or roulette.
You made an assumption that their love of the sport will somehow translate into proficiency at the sport. Obviously, that assumption is not true.
In the duty finder, someone's desire to clear XYZ content is not a reflection of their skill level.

I absolutely HATE Brayflox. But I understand the subtle genius behind that dungeon.

This isnt a design discussion. This is a discussion of poor performance. With the question being "Why does it feel like poor play is acceptable?".
Say I queue leveling roulette as a tank, get brayflox, and at some point in the dungeon one of the potential problems you mention occurs, doesnt really matter which one.
The party member in question isn't kicked
They make a similar mistake and are not kicked.
etc
As I said in my first post, it will only feel like poor play is acceptable if you decide to feel that way. It really doesnt matter how many mistakes someone makes. I am by no means saying that their performance is acceptable, maybe 'tolerable' at best.

People are acting like the sky is falling when the randomly assigned party member doesnt meet their expectations. Getting bad party members on occasion is a part of pugging. You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

[Dualgunner]

My points were valid.

Except for the failed hypothetical syllogism. That wasn't very valid.

[HyoMinPark]

People are acting like the sky is falling when the randomly assigned party member doesnt meet their expectations. Getting bad party members on occasion is a part of pugging. You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

Most of what I see are people sympathizing with the OP in that they have met players at levels much higher than beginner levels performing subparly, and then getting bent out of shape when someone offers to show them a proper way/better way to play, and how poor play in higher level content is just not acceptable. Or how it’s not “high standards” to expect people at levels 50, 60, and 70 to know the very basics of their job/role. And people disagreeing that playing the game/playing your job well is not the equivalent of treating the game like a “job”, as one poster tried to insinuate.

Different skill levels do exist. But that doesn’t make lazy play (note, how I said lazy play, not play born from lack of knowledge on your job/role) okay. Especially the higher level you get. A non-combo’d Butcher’s Block only WAR in Snowcloak? Tank unable to perform the basics of his role in a level 70 dungeon? Healer unable to keep up with basic healing demands? Unacceptable.

Because I find it very unlikely that that WAR didn’t know Butcher’s Block uncomboed is extremely ineffective. And, on the off-chance he did and turned down helpful, respectfully delivered advice because “it’s my sub”, then he is still at fault, and his behavior is still unacceptable.

I find it far more upsetting that people are willing to white-knight poor play because “it’s just a game”. Yeah, well so is something like football or basketball. Doesn’t mean that you just let the opposing team steal the ball from you each time because “lol it’s just a game, I play for fun”. I’m willing to overlook if a player is truly new, and if it really looks like they are trying to improve. But if a person is willfully performing poorly, I have no patience or tolerance for them.

[MoroMurasaki]

People are acting like the sky is falling when the randomly assigned party member doesnt meet their expectations. Getting bad party members on occasion is a part of pugging. You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

When your standards are "read your tooltips and apply logic to them to come to some sort of rudimentary rotation" yes, that's a completely reasonable thing to expect in group content.

If you can't read how are you playing this game? If you can't follow a series of flashing buttons telling you what to press next I feel you shouldn't be doing group content until this is something within your wheelhouse.

[odintius]

I don't put all the blame on the players as a whole allot of the issues also is on the game itself that help promote this as well. This is what you get when you have mostly easy access game play and a learning curve they have imo that atrocious. Welcome to the modern mmorpg theme park standards for at least NA for my experience at least it a roll of the dice in the end good luck on your role.

[Jijifli]

Your claim was that a group of "sports-loving guys" would know the basics of how to play the sport they loved.

Are going to tell me you fully believe if a person is a fan of Baseball, watches multiple games, but doesn't know you run bases counterclockwise when he decides to do it?

[RyuDragnier]

When they went and nerfed Steps of Faith because it'd have blocked people out of expansion content, it was the probably the biggest indicator that being a poor performer was "okay".

Indeed it was...thank Hydaelin for Royal Menagerie. That fight will slap you around, tell you you're trash, push your face into the dirt, and tell you to "Git gud, scrub" should you keep falling. That fight is the one that brings out many mechanics learned prior to it and forces you to master them to survive. A good team of 7 can easily carry somebody through the fight, but rarely will you see it...you'll more often see people wipe because of bads.

[LyraKuroneko]

Indeed it was...thank Hydaelin for Royal Menagerie. That fight will slap you around, tell you you're trash, push your face into the dirt, and tell you to "Git gud, scrub" should you keep falling. That fight is the one that brings out many mechanics learned prior to it and forces you to master them to survive. A good team of 7 can easily carry somebody through the fight, but rarely will you see it...you'll more often see people wipe because of bads.

It was nice content to see. But didn't it get nerfed because of the players we're talking about? I'm not sure, saw it being ask but don't remember if it been done or not.