How would you make RDM more complex?

[Kabooa]

I'd add a few single mana spenders, as well as a few conditions that allow more accelerated mana gains. The goal is to build towards your big pay off while also using the single mana spenders for impactful effects.

Berserk
Ability
Recast: 45 seconds
Cost: 25 Black Mana
Effect: Grant the target party member 'Berserk', increasing their damage dealt and their Resource Costs by 20% for 20 seconds.

Refresh
Ability
Recast: 45 seconds
Cost: 25 White Mana
Effect: Grants the target party member Refresh, restoring their TP and MP for 15 seconds.

Impact: Impact gains a trait based on the spell cast prior to it. Impact no longer requires Jolt to be cast and no longer generates Mana on its own.
-Scatter: Impact deals 40% less damage but hits all targets within 5y of the primary target. Generates 3/3 Mana.
-VerFire/Thunder: Impact generates 8 Black mana and increases further black mana gains by X% for the next 20 seconds. Overrides the White mana generation boost.
-VerStone/Aero: Impact generates 8 white mana and increases further White mana gains by X% for the next 20 seconds. Overrides the Black mana generation boost.
-Verflare: Impact grants you Berserk for 20 seconds.
-VerHoly: Impact grants you Refresh for 15 seconds.

[TarynH]

Refresh
Ability
Recast: 45 seconds
Cost: 25 White Mana
Effect: Grants the target party member Refresh, restoring their TP and MP for 15 seconds.

/sigh

There's going to be additions, you might as well give them ideas for which buttons you want to press and how often.

Okay then. My idea is to keep RDM simple, with no additions. (Traits and tiers to spells aside.) Spend the rest of development time on other more complicated jobs. Some of which desperately need it.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

That's simply not a viable option, you may like it simple but a very large portion of RDM's are going to be upset if it has no mechanical changes from one expansion to the next. Not to mention, that's not a real idea, tbh that's just complacent.

[Almandaragal]

I wouldn't, not at current cap. It's already been noted, but part of the "point" of the class is not to be overly complex. As someone who mained BLM through 4.0, and frankly would still love to play BLM, I enjoy RDM. However, my non-optimal machine (graphics card, really) neuters me as a BLM even ignoring that the current game setup makes it abundantly clear that BLM is low-tier useful.

There are plenty of buttons and ways to go about things, and skills to optimize (like fitting two melee combos into a single embolden, even if it's pointless with the tiny boost by the end) currently in RDM, but it's not all absolutely required to keep managed down to the second like it nearly is with, say, BLM. I understand that the gap is apparently pretty big on SMN too, but I only have experience with BLM, so I'll keep my comparisons there.

Sure, the rotation is fairly simple, sorta. To explain it via flowchart looks like a nightmare, but in practice it's basically a small series of if/then statements. However, that doesn't mean that we need to artificially inflate complexity just for the sake of doing so. Expand it next expansion? Sign me up. I don't know how they plan to deal with button bloat, since some skills will straight up need to be obsolete for many classes at higher levels or we won't have room for the buttons, but I'm not opposed to things getting slightly more complex on RDM-- as part of the natural progression, not just for kicks and giggles.

Right now? What I'd rather see on RDM is Impact(ful) being a proc of Jolt II and taking up the same button, like the melee skills. Right now it wastes another button space despite not even being available without the proc, which makes no sense. At least Fire III on BLM is available to use otherwise and just procs for no cost, but there is no such benefit/potential other use with RDM and Impactful. Likewise, Embolden should just affect both Magic and Physical for all. If I have to be nearby and the effect is reduced every 4 seconds, utility might as well be proper for such limitations. So really, if anything, basics of RDM could use slightly less "complexity", at least until the natural time to get more complex is here. Doing just because though? I don't see a good reason for it at the present time.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Dude. First sentence. 'In the future.' The likelihood of mechanical changes now is very slim at best. I am not dissatisfied with Red Mage as it is currently but there's literally 0 depth, note Red Mage was not advertised as 'starter class extraordinaire' but high speed positioning combo caster . The entire class can be summed up with, 'spell 1 then spell 2 then proc 1 then spell 2 until stab 1 2 3 and boom.' The simplicity is nice to a point but a little extra would be nice. Fitting two combos under embolden is not optimization either unless you're lucky enough (re: not player controlled) to be coming up on 100/100 very close to the same time as Manafication comes off cooldown. The two things you mentioned in your last paragraph are QoL issues at most. They have nothing to do with complexity.

I swear I should've added, 'If you wanted to increase the depth on Red Mage please offer some suggestions, otherwise don't clutter the thread with pointless debate'

[RylaBee]

Careful what you wish for.

Good gaming experience comes from combination of your own class gameplay and encounter(boss) mechanics themselves.
This game needs more interesting and varied boss mechanincs, not more overcomplicated class/job mechanincs.

Personaly I enjoy being a PLAYER, not an accountant with 75% of screen covered by timers and powergauges.
Have seen a Bahamut prime video where this is exactly the case - the player has gauges/timers everywhere (even robotic-voice audio-ques in backgroud), basically seeing almost nothing of how the boss or surroundings actually look.

At the end, he might just as well won a battle in Microsoft Excel and not epic bossfight in MMO.

[Llugen]

The most valid reason for Impact not being a proc of Jolt II is that since Impact is still hardcast rather than instant cast, the proc could fall off mid-cast, which may be problematic from a programming standpoint with the differences in job gauge increase. This could probably be fixed by just making it instant cast, but that has implications for dualcast, kinda.

I didn’t read most of this thread (including the OP), but in response to the thread title, I honestly don’t think they have any intention of making RDM any more complex. Their goal in 4.0 was to simplify the jobs, and while there was certainly mixed success with this (I'm looking at you, SMN), it’s good for the community to have at least one job that is extremely accessible.

However, if I personally was charged with making adjustments, I would make verflare/verholy have different effects on top of the gauge increases to incentivize strategy for which to use when over just "which gauge is lower" (maybe one with a DoT and one with a damage vuln), and then I would probably make something reduce the timer(s) on manafication and potentially Fleche and Contre Sixte (such as whenever you get a verfire/verstone proc). I'd also kinda like to see separate melee combos, one aoe combo (because just Moulinet is boring) one strong single target combo (Full Thrust) and one damage up one (Chaos Thrust), or something. This would make planning ahead on the job more valuable and add some complexity and nuance.

[Kabooa]

Careful what you wish for.

Good gaming experience comes from combination of your own class gameplay and encounter(boss) mechanics themselves.
This game needs more interesting and varied boss mechanincs, not more overcomplicated class/job mechanincs.

Personaly I enjoy being a PLAYER, not an accountant with 75% of screen covered by timers and powergauges.
Have seen a Bahamut prime video where this is exactly the case - the player has gauges/timers everywhere (even robotic-voice audio-ques in backgroud), basically seeing almost nothing of how the boss or surroundings actually look.

At the end, he might just as well won a battle in Microsoft Excel and not epic bossfight in MMO.

Speaking as a player who has dealt with excel raiding, being able to micromanage a constant flow of information is more entertaining than bashing 123 and moving out of floor stuff.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Again, more complex does not necessarily mean playing grand orchestra style piano on your keyboard. I'm not talking about adding a hundred new buttons to press nor a mega mandatory maintenance buff that gimps you for forced inactivity. I'm talking about maybe one or two more variables other than, "do have proc?", or "how big number to stab?". I quit playing SMN over the massive amount of micro management, RDM is a fun change of pace but that pace need not always be a leisurely meander through the tulip garden.

@Llugen I rather like those suggestions tbh, more incentive without anything too superfluous. Sorry for any discord in the past, what a shame we can't have a proper discussion about this.

@Kabooa I legitimately hadn't thought about consuming mana for support buffs, and I like the idea. I am a little unclear on how the Impact change would work.

[Kabooa]

Again, more complex does not necessarily mean playing grand orchestra style piano on your keyboard. I'm not talking about adding a hundred new buttons to press nor a mega mandatory maintenance buff that gimps you for forced inactivity. I'm talking about maybe one or two more variables other than, "do have proc?", or "how big number to stab?". I quit playing SMN over the massive amount of micro management, RDM is a fun change of pace but that pace need not always be a leisurely meander through the tulip garden.

With this in mind, the Impact suggestion I made alone seems sufficient for a variable piece. A priority use depending on what you need at the moment and that you plan ahead for.

Also Flare Rose'.