How would you make RDM more complex?

[Almandaragal]

I wouldn't, not at current cap. It's already been noted, but part of the "point" of the class is not to be overly complex. As someone who mained BLM through 4.0, and frankly would still love to play BLM, I enjoy RDM. However, my non-optimal machine (graphics card, really) neuters me as a BLM even ignoring that the current game setup makes it abundantly clear that BLM is low-tier useful.

There are plenty of buttons and ways to go about things, and skills to optimize (like fitting two melee combos into a single embolden, even if it's pointless with the tiny boost by the end) currently in RDM, but it's not all absolutely required to keep managed down to the second like it nearly is with, say, BLM. I understand that the gap is apparently pretty big on SMN too, but I only have experience with BLM, so I'll keep my comparisons there.

Sure, the rotation is fairly simple, sorta. To explain it via flowchart looks like a nightmare, but in practice it's basically a small series of if/then statements. However, that doesn't mean that we need to artificially inflate complexity just for the sake of doing so. Expand it next expansion? Sign me up. I don't know how they plan to deal with button bloat, since some skills will straight up need to be obsolete for many classes at higher levels or we won't have room for the buttons, but I'm not opposed to things getting slightly more complex on RDM-- as part of the natural progression, not just for kicks and giggles.

Right now? What I'd rather see on RDM is Impact(ful) being a proc of Jolt II and taking up the same button, like the melee skills. Right now it wastes another button space despite not even being available without the proc, which makes no sense. At least Fire III on BLM is available to use otherwise and just procs for no cost, but there is no such benefit/potential other use with RDM and Impactful. Likewise, Embolden should just affect both Magic and Physical for all. If I have to be nearby and the effect is reduced every 4 seconds, utility might as well be proper for such limitations. So really, if anything, basics of RDM could use slightly less "complexity", at least until the natural time to get more complex is here. Doing just because though? I don't see a good reason for it at the present time.

[TarynH]

That's simply not a viable option, you may like it simple but a very large portion of RDM's are going to be upset if it has no mechanical changes from one expansion to the next. Not to mention, that's not a real idea, tbh that's just complacent.

It's not complacency. Complacency would be saying you want no changes to anything ever. I stated it would be wiser to spend more time on the jobs that need it, and give RDM very few changes. RDM was meant to be simple and fun. It's simple and fun. So the old adage of, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," applies to the job.

As it stands right now, RDM is fine where it's at; for what it is. It doesn't need "mechanical" changes. You also assume a lot, in that they need to change every job with every expansion. Job gauges aside, most jobs changed very little with 4.0, while a few didn't really change at all. Only one had a complete overhaul. So you're rushing to conclusions a little here too.

Yes, it might get a few changes. Or they could just simply add tiers of spells and traits, with one ability/spell at 80. (Assuming they even raise the level cap.) I really don't care, as far as that goes. As long as it stays RDM. I, for one, am perfectly happy with the basic concepts of the job, and don't want to see it become overly complex. So excuse me when I see you write things like "mechanical changes," and "maintenance buffs;" and it gets me thinking you just want the job to have busy work to fit your personal needs and levels of excitement.

And I also don't care if you "don't want a discussion." Writing that does not make your thread the Holy Grail, behind an untouchable glass case. If others don't want to see RDM changed, they're entitled to voice that opinion on here. Especially in a thread where one person wants to control the flow of the discussion like that, or suppress dissenting viewpoints. "Don't change RDM," is every bit as important as your asinine suggestions in the OP.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Where exactly is your dev testimonial about how simple it's supposed to be? Unless You personally designed RDM I wouldn't deign to make that claim. You said no changes beyond tier spells which aren't actual changes. I didn't say it needed a complete overhaul nor did I say it needed to be overly complex. In fact I specifically stated i didn't want that. Most jobs in 4.0 changed the additional mechanics almost all of them received in 3.0 or added them if they didn't already have them. My suggestions were far from asinine whereas your, "Waah I want it to stay overtly simple," argument ended with 'well play a different class lol'. I don't want a discussion with, yes complacent, people like yourself. It's not controlling discussion I literally didn't want to engage with you in any way but now you've gone and messed up the thread with your pointless panic crusade. If any easy to maintain buff like the one I suggested or either of the long cooldowns I suggested are too complex for you I'm extremely skeptical of your critical thinking skills.

Let me be perfectly clear here, I don't have some dastardly intention to deceive what devs gather as feedback. I don't want to convince everyone that complexity is the only viable option. I literally have 0 to say to the people that want to keep it simple because they're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince them so why waste the effort on something I don't care about? Plainly the intention was to drum up some interesting ideas about how to add complexity to RDM not fritter away my time with whether or not I should. You're the one controlling discussion. You immediately derailed the topic with the other two in the span of 2 minutes and you could've kept browsing. The onus is on you.

[Neela]

And I didn't "attack." Get over yourself. I stated an opinion, and you called me out. Thus dragging out the conversation to this point, despite you "not wanting a discussion." Simple as that.

Especially in a thread where one person wants to control the flow of the discussion like that, or suppress dissenting viewpoints. "Don't change RDM Blm does not need a res," is every bit as important as your asinine suggestions in the OP.

this sounds so fck familiar, right Llugen? ;'3

@topic the least complicated way to give them a kind of variety without loosing the base-simplicity are alternative melee-combos or combo-finisher - leaving the base- & proc mechanic as it is. Imo : /

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Dude. First sentence. 'In the future.' The likelihood of mechanical changes now is very slim at best. I am not dissatisfied with Red Mage as it is currently but there's literally 0 depth, note Red Mage was not advertised as 'starter class extraordinaire' but high speed positioning combo caster . The entire class can be summed up with, 'spell 1 then spell 2 then proc 1 then spell 2 until stab 1 2 3 and boom.' The simplicity is nice to a point but a little extra would be nice. Fitting two combos under embolden is not optimization either unless you're lucky enough (re: not player controlled) to be coming up on 100/100 very close to the same time as Manafication comes off cooldown. The two things you mentioned in your last paragraph are QoL issues at most. They have nothing to do with complexity.

I swear I should've added, 'If you wanted to increase the depth on Red Mage please offer some suggestions, otherwise don't clutter the thread with pointless debate'

[Almandaragal]

Dude. First sentence. 'In the future.' The likelihood of mechanical changes now is very slim at best. I am not dissatisfied with Red Mage as it is currently but there's literally 0 depth, note Red Mage was not advertised as 'starter class extraordinaire' but high speed positioning combo caster . The entire class can be summed up with, 'spell 1 then spell 2 then proc 1 then spell 2 until stab 1 2 3 and boom.' The simplicity is nice to a point but a little extra would be nice. Fitting two combos under embolden is not optimization either unless you're lucky enough (re: not player controlled) to be coming up on 100/100 very close to the same time as Manafication comes off cooldown. The two things you mentioned in your last paragraph are QoL issues at most. They have nothing to do with complexity.

I swear I should've added, 'If you wanted to increase the depth on Red Mage please offer some suggestions, otherwise don't clutter the thread with pointless debate'

Indeed, you mention "in the future" in the first sentence. I suppose the vibe I got from your posts felt a bit more like "the sooner the better", given frustration seems to be pervading your posts, much like the start of your reply here to me. I understand the frustration of people coming in and saying, well, what I did: "I wouldn't", but you did ask a leading question. "Would you like RDM to be more complex, and if so, how would you do it?" is a more "fair" question to ask. The question you posed assumes that all of the readers, or at least responders, want added complexity. It's obvious at this point in time that not all RDM players do, and while some complexity is likely to be added (and isn't necessarily a bad thing), feedback is best representative of the community, at least those willing to post, as opposed to being led artificially in one direction.

Yes, the class is largely simple compared to a number of others that we have available, not that that's saying much with how ridiculous some situations get. That said, in keeping with the way the class currently has lore set up, there isn't a lot that can be done to add layers without going overboard. I'm mostly of the mind that Flare/Holy could get different effects as noted by others. I always kind of wondered why that wasn't a thing, since if you have things set up so they proc, you have to play super catch up with the lower mana color because you start out flirting with the allowed gap distance. Flare could lower mdef/raise magic vulnerability of target, Holy could lower the attack of the target. Or Flare could put a DoT on the target, Holy could put a few second silence.

Or, if we really wanted to have some interesting effects, have Verraise ad an 8s regen if White mana was at 100 at time of casting, etc. Not really sure I like that kind of thing though, because RDM is a DPS, and we don't actually have support classes officially recognized. If such a thing doesn't come about, and I don't see it happening, then RDM needs more damage, not more utility. We already pay a higher price in damage than our utility is useful once people know a given fight at all.

Just to toss another couple of things out there, Contre Sixte could have an X% chance to proc a free Moulinet/Enchanted Moulinet, or give a Y% buff for the next one since a free one might be a bit much if the proc rate was too high.

Still though, while any number of things could be interesting, I'm not sure I'd want to see much more added, and certainly nothing along the lines of vernochian. If I wanted that pain while dealing with mechanics, I'd still be maining my BLM.

[RylaBee]

Careful what you wish for.

Good gaming experience comes from combination of your own class gameplay and encounter(boss) mechanics themselves.
This game needs more interesting and varied boss mechanincs, not more overcomplicated class/job mechanincs.

Personaly I enjoy being a PLAYER, not an accountant with 75% of screen covered by timers and powergauges.
Have seen a Bahamut prime video where this is exactly the case - the player has gauges/timers everywhere (even robotic-voice audio-ques in backgroud), basically seeing almost nothing of how the boss or surroundings actually look.

At the end, he might just as well won a battle in Microsoft Excel and not epic bossfight in MMO.

[Kabooa]

Careful what you wish for.

Good gaming experience comes from combination of your own class gameplay and encounter(boss) mechanics themselves.
This game needs more interesting and varied boss mechanincs, not more overcomplicated class/job mechanincs.

Personaly I enjoy being a PLAYER, not an accountant with 75% of screen covered by timers and powergauges.
Have seen a Bahamut prime video where this is exactly the case - the player has gauges/timers everywhere (even robotic-voice audio-ques in backgroud), basically seeing almost nothing of how the boss or surroundings actually look.

At the end, he might just as well won a battle in Microsoft Excel and not epic bossfight in MMO.

Speaking as a player who has dealt with excel raiding, being able to micromanage a constant flow of information is more entertaining than bashing 123 and moving out of floor stuff.

[Llugen]

The most valid reason for Impact not being a proc of Jolt II is that since Impact is still hardcast rather than instant cast, the proc could fall off mid-cast, which may be problematic from a programming standpoint with the differences in job gauge increase. This could probably be fixed by just making it instant cast, but that has implications for dualcast, kinda.

I didn’t read most of this thread (including the OP), but in response to the thread title, I honestly don’t think they have any intention of making RDM any more complex. Their goal in 4.0 was to simplify the jobs, and while there was certainly mixed success with this (I'm looking at you, SMN), it’s good for the community to have at least one job that is extremely accessible.

However, if I personally was charged with making adjustments, I would make verflare/verholy have different effects on top of the gauge increases to incentivize strategy for which to use when over just "which gauge is lower" (maybe one with a DoT and one with a damage vuln), and then I would probably make something reduce the timer(s) on manafication and potentially Fleche and Contre Sixte (such as whenever you get a verfire/verstone proc). I'd also kinda like to see separate melee combos, one aoe combo (because just Moulinet is boring) one strong single target combo (Full Thrust) and one damage up one (Chaos Thrust), or something. This would make planning ahead on the job more valuable and add some complexity and nuance.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Again, more complex does not necessarily mean playing grand orchestra style piano on your keyboard. I'm not talking about adding a hundred new buttons to press nor a mega mandatory maintenance buff that gimps you for forced inactivity. I'm talking about maybe one or two more variables other than, "do have proc?", or "how big number to stab?". I quit playing SMN over the massive amount of micro management, RDM is a fun change of pace but that pace need not always be a leisurely meander through the tulip garden.

@Llugen I rather like those suggestions tbh, more incentive without anything too superfluous. Sorry for any discord in the past, what a shame we can't have a proper discussion about this.

@Kabooa I legitimately hadn't thought about consuming mana for support buffs, and I like the idea. I am a little unclear on how the Impact change would work.