Quote Originally Posted by Wintersandman View Post
It does exclude a vast majority of people who didn't jump on new content the week it was released, which is not beneficial to people just starting out or people trying to catch up. It is discouraging to look at PF groups and see your immediately excluded. Ya I could start my own and say it is a learning party but then people bail on the 3rd wipe. If you don't see that as toxic and non-beneficial to the community than you really haven't been part of a helpful community.My point is you don't have to make it 8 man to make it challenging. Also PvP is far more challenging than PvE as it is not about memorizing a dance.
Excluding people is not toxic. Just because something is discouraging does not mean it is toxic. I've helped tons of new players get into Savage raiding and got a lot of people their O3S clears when they were stuck for weeks so don't try to talk down from your mighty pedestal on me about knowing what "helpful" is.

I think I've asked numerous times now, how would you make 4m content challenging? Cite specific examples for all 4 roles (melee, ranged phys, caster, and tank). I was unable to do it and found considerably better design with an 8m party design.

PVP in general yes, PVP in this game? No. Pick a healer, single-handedly carry your team to victory in RW. Otherwise pick a ranged DPS and single-handedly carry any other PVP mode this game offers. Nothing about it is "hard". Not sure why you brought this up though as it's not relevant to the discussion.