My Eureka Concept

[Shurrikhan]

I'll task you with a project. Develop a 24 man encounter with some example mechanics and a "expected outcome". I.e. how to pass each mechanic ideally based on 'small group, medium, and large'. (4, 8, and 24 respectively).

I am refraining from the scalar discussion bit, because I am unable to work out how I would even tackle that at the moment. I'd prefer to keep that discussion separate (but please know I SUPPORT the concept of flex), I just have no idea how to implement/tune it.

Challenge tentatively accepted, though I probably won't have time until the weekend.

...This is going to take a lot of pages.

...And I'll have to cope with perfectionism even over superfluous constructs.

Definitely the weekend at the earliest.

EDIT: Sorry, things have gotten badly busy this month, and it's been hard to come up with anything cohesive in the half hours breaks here and there. Also, it's been quite difficult to separate from larger combat overhauls or encounter settings.

[Shurrikhan]

The thing that makes this game is amazing, as I can do group play and I can do solo play. SE is already catering to this just as you can't do story duties in a group.

Hasn't that actually been blamed on yet another net code issue, rather than a decision based on design philosophy? I really doubt it was by ardent decision so much as it was simply easier not to allow for multiple players (by reasons of netcode, progress querying/ticking, and scaling).

Yes SE could refresh the content but now you have content that is either too far ahead or too far behind. 3.1-3.5 wasn't that massive of a shift but massive enough people in their 270 gear would steamroll A1S where as someone in i190 gear would be suffering.

But given that the lowest ilvl given in levelcap content was i160, I would hope that someone 110 levels above that would perform noticeably better than someone a mere 30 above. While creep may have been slightly high, there still needs to be a difference sufficient to convince people to raid (short of some god-level content designs that anyone would play through sheerly for fun).

[Wintersandman]

But given that the lowest ilvl given in levelcap content was i160, I would hope that someone 110 levels above that would perform noticeably better than someone a mere 30 above. While creep may have been slightly high, there still needs to be a difference sufficient to convince people to raid (short of some god-level content designs that anyone would play through sheerly for fun).

My point is that to keep it challenging you would need to raise the difficulty of the monsters which would leave people just starting out not being able to even begin due to the ilvl gating.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Tomes are a stupid idea, you have to grind those tomes to get into a dungeon, I don't want to waste 100 tomes or even 1 tome on a dungeon of any sort. I don't like randoms that's my major complaint with raiding as it is. I prefer a static of like minded people that want to go in to have fun and get some loot not go in for the loot itself.

Preface: Please answer questions I highlight in bold in responses to make sure I fully understand your train of thought. Some things you've stated seem a little difficult to follow/contradictory.

Were you wasting tomes when you bought "random relic material x" from Rowena?
The idea is the same here except the fact that there's actual content involved and not menu content. You're not wasting tomes on anything. You are spending them on loot/progressing your relic.

You're not advocating that MENU content is a better alternative for Relics are you?

I'm not looking for mindless content, as I keep saying i like the ideas, they just don't fit in for relic grinds. I disagree about you being able to get your relic faster because you chose the harder content, not everyone has the time to put the effort into raiding (not talking about myself)

Interesting. You believe that every player should get equal reward regardless of effort? If I do more challenging/difficult content, I should not be rewarded with a slight gain of weapon experience over someone who took the easier/FASTER route? I very firmly disagree with you here.

Also IF you have the time to grind a relic, YOU HAVE the time to do the content I designed. It's as simple as that.

Spending tomes isn't what people are really interested in doing though.

So what are people really interested in doing with tomes then though? Last I checked there are only really 2 functions available with a given resource. Use it, or hoard it. If I am mistaken here please point me in the right direction.

Might hold true for you but I hear about my FC leader not being able to get into O3S even tho she's geared and knows the fight. I've seen plenty of elitism on the forums as it is. It's always there, regardless of you seeing it or not, count yourself lucky.

I specifically said TRUE elitism, not just fake perceived elitism. Why can't she get into O3S? Why didn't she just create her own party? If she hasn't cleared (which is the main reason she can't find a party I suspect) that's not elitism that's preventing her from clearing it. It's also not elitism that she isn't be invited to parties. Most forum "elitism" is just more fake sensationalist crap to be honest.

I however would like to see your ideas put into a POTD type of system, whether it's single player or party content. I think your ideas are great and whatnot but I just think it's better suited for a filler type thing to do outside of raiding. I think there needs to be more focus on harder 4 man content and less on 8 man content, they've started doing this but I just never really liked raiding, it's more about the player count than anything else tbh.

I don't intend to come off combative, I do greatly appreciate you taking the time to talk with me about this.

How would you make 4 man content harder? I'd love to hear your ideas. Try and convince me that my idea is better suited to 4m rather than 8. Specific mechanics/examples, and gameplay flow would be helpful in understanding the picture you paint.

Why not just make Diadem 4.0 and not include the relic? Relic is meant completely for casual play and past relics had some dungeon content yes but I got to choose for almost every step what content I wanted to engage in. For the items I could do beast tribes, A1S or turn in tomes. I had an option for solo play and an option for group play.

Yes in the past relic has been completely for lower skilled players. I agree. (There is ABSOLUTELY nothing, not a single thing casual about the investment required to craft a relic).

I don't recall the relic's at release (both ARR/HW) being that varied, but it is possible that they changed it later or that I am wrong. I am not an expert on relic acquisition in its current patch. I remember very specific FATE farming, Book farming, dungeon/raid spamming, and tons of materia.

The thing that makes this game is amazing, as I can do group play and I can do solo play. SE is already catering to this just as you can't do story duties in a group. They designed the game for this intent in mind because their past MMO you couldn't even level without a group.

I have no issue with group/solo content. I just don't want to see the game shift to MORE solo content. I think the MSQ, PotD, Outworld stuff is more than sufficient. That's my opinion though.

Yes SE could refresh the content but now you have content that is either too far ahead or too far behind. 3.1-3.5 wasn't that massive of a shift but massive enough people in their 270 gear would steamroll A1S where as someone in i190 gear would be suffering.

Just because historically SQEX is unable to have content scale doesn't mean that they can't physically do it.

But to cater to your point specifically, they could just as easily leave 1 star tuned at base ilvl (like 300), this way the lower skill playerbase can just do this no matter what their gear is and getting new better gear i.e. in patch 4.5 makes farming that stuff easier. I'd be ok with that and having 2 star+ continue to scale with the game for those that enjoy a degree of challenge. Hell you could even use 1 star as catch up (since treasure chests do drop loot).

My point is that to keep it challenging you would need to raise the difficulty of the monsters which would leave people just starting out not being able to even begin due to the ilvl gating.

See above.

[Wintersandman]

I don't recall the relic's at release (both ARR/HW) being that varied, but it is possible that they changed it later or that I am wrong. I am not an expert on relic acquisition in its current patch. I remember very specific FATE farming, Book farming, dungeon/raid spamming, and tons of materia.

ARR Relic
Trials
Books (Pretty much solo)
Maps (Solo or Group)
Light (Solo or Group)
Dungeon items (Group)
I know I am skipping some steps

HW Relic
Fate Farming (Solo or Group)
Dungeons (Group)
Unidentified Items + Crafted Pieces (Solo or Group) Could do Beast Tribes, Spam Alex 1-4 or Turn in Tomestones
Tomestone Items (Had to dungeons or beast tribes to get tomestones but these could be solo, 4 man, 8 man or 24 man)
Umbrite Phase (Group and Solo Content as there were multiple sources of obtaining Sand, Etc)
Singing Shards (Tomestones or Roulettes)
Light Phase (Solo or Group)
Last Phase (8 man Trials and then GC Seals or Tomestones)

The difference between this and Eureka is it is much easier to find a group for almost any step except later on getting Alex 1-4 as people are doing roulettes and you were most likely to get a party.

Your version of Eureka is like a Diadem, It only stays relevant with the current iLvl and then loses favor. Which is why you can barely get a Diadem run today and barely could get one after 3.3 released. Getting 8 people to go into Diadem even for gathering is a chore. The purpose behind the relic is to make it accessible for everyone at the cost of it being a grind. You can make it 1 Star, 2 Star but what is the incentive for the people who are on 2 star to go back and do the 1 star? You can look at any of the raids through HW and finding a A1-4 party in 3.5 was nigh impossible. 60-minute+ wait time more often than not and is a clear example of how even a Star system would devolve into. The FFXIV playerbase wants things quickly and even though you could have it be a catch up with gear they will still be a burden on the party who wants to clear it as fast as possible (Grind remember).

Grinding A1S is a perfect example which a lot of people did for Light. Most parties were 6 DPS, 1 Healer, 1 Tank. Could it be cleared with the standard 2,2,4? Yes it could but people were wanting to get most efficiently so they moved away from the standard party make up. Which left healers and tanks having to sit in PF making their own group or they would find other sources. By making it one source for a grind it takes away options for players to get it and locking it behind a full party makes it even more challenging.

If anything Eureka will be more like a PotD where it is independent of party make up and they will add new floors for the next level just as when they had the standard i235 weapon that could be upgraded to the Kinna i255. Which will allow a solo or group option. People love and hate potd as it is still relevant content. But Diadem was a flash in the pan.

[Shurrikhan]

My point is that to keep it challenging you would need to raise the difficulty of the monsters which would leave people just starting out not being able to even begin due to the ilvl gating.

Should i290 players have to be accounted for? What's wrong with it being current content, meant for those who have been mostly maintaining their gear prior to release (within casual access, that is)?

And even if that were to occur, one can simply introduce a Hard and regular mode as per Diadem previously, wherein the regular mode would be tuned to that i290 level, while the Hard mode is tuned to around i330.

Or why stop there? Since this includes only one party, who have to enter together (be that premade or match-made), you *could* technically scale content directly off their item level. It wouldn't be the best way to go about it, as skill level would make a bigger difference than gear anyways and an unmelded piece or nonoptimal secondary stats would work against you, but you *could* do that.

[Wintersandman]

Should i290 players have to be accounted for? What's wrong with it being current content, meant for those who have been mostly maintaining their gear prior to release (within casual access, that is)?

And even if that were to occur, one can simply introduce a Hard and regular mode as per Diadem previously, wherein the regular mode would be tuned to that i290 level, while the Hard mode is tuned to around i330.

Or why stop there? Since this includes only one party, who have to enter together (be that premade or match-made), you *could* technically scale content directly off their item level. It wouldn't be the best way to go about it, as skill level would make a bigger difference than gear anyways and an unmelded piece or nonoptimal secondary stats would work against you, but you *could* do that.

Seeing how a relic quest is done in phases. You will leave someone behind and as Yoshi has previously said the Relic is meant to be a grind and for those who aren't raiders. Which is also why the relic is never BiS very long.

But even if you tune Hard Mode to i330 then when 4.3 releases gear will be i350-i370 and now it will be steamroll easy and also lose it's favor because there will be better weapons available.

[Shouko]

Snip

I really don't have much else to say, I haven't finished a relic ever, haven't made it past the book stage due to quitting, taking a break or just plain getting bored of it. I don't like relic grinds the way they are, but i'm also not going to complain about it.

As for ideas well, they need to change the DDR system, at least have some control, like give us different ways to avoid the AoE instead of just running away from it. DRG used to have a high jump that would avoid all the damage but not be able to do anything for a few seconds as they were off screen. BLM could have a phase out system for AoE attacks on a small CD, SMN could send their pet in front of them to take the brunt of the damage, hell even a simple jump, roll or flip out of the AoE like DRG/RDM have, just more to that effect. Just anything to break up the monotony of DDR.

[Shurrikhan]

Seeing how a relic quest is done in phases. You will leave someone behind and as Yoshi has previously said the Relic is meant to be a grind and for those who aren't raiders. Which is also why the relic is never BiS very long.

But even if you tune Hard Mode to i330 then when 4.3 releases gear will be i350-i370 and now it will be steamroll easy and also lose it's favor because there will be better weapons available.

At which point you can release an additional mode, or additional adapters, or just leave it as is, but now make it more viable to go against the more difficult packs, or to pursue further completion, etc., etc.

Not all mob packs are going to have the same difficulty, nor will there be just one bar for completion -- all or nothing. You can do more in the given time with increased gear, but that doesn't necessarily make things steamroll when you're thereby encountering increasingly more difficult mobs.

This whole ultimatum thing you're suggesting isn't really an ultimatum.

[Sandpark]

Seeing how a relic quest is done in phases. You will leave someone behind and as Yoshi has previously said the Relic is meant to be a grind and for those who aren't raiders. Which is also why the relic is never BiS very long.

But even if you tune Hard Mode to i330 then when 4.3 releases gear will be i350-i370 and now it will be steamroll easy and also lose it's favor because there will be better weapons available.

At which point you can release an additional mode, or additional adapters, or just leave it as is, but now make it more viable to go against the more difficult packs, or to pursue further completion, etc., etc.

Not all mob packs are going to have the same difficulty, nor will there be just one bar for completion -- all or nothing. You can do more in the given time with increased gear, but that doesn't necessarily make things steamroll when you're thereby encountering increasingly more difficult mobs.

This whole ultimatum thing you're suggesting isn't really an ultimatum.

I don't want phases. If you have phases then it will be just like other content with cooldowns/lockouts. Content designed for casuals has to be easy to jump in or out. That means no large group made default, time commitment is decided by the player and stuff has to be always accessible. I also don't want relic to be an ilevel anything, because that implies Eureka content will become obsolete in stages.

Additional modes if you mean normal, hard, extreme, savage is not conducive to casual grind because that implies that there will be global game system,in place to segregate players. What makes it more viable to go against more difficult packs? Gear and stats, as those variables raise, they begin to outpace enemies, leading to the ability to engage stronger and stronger enemies.

But are those enemies dealt with differently once your powers outpace theirs? Not really so far, you defeat packs in the same way but with stronger skills. Enter Sastasha then enter Doma Castle, you are either fighting small packs with single target or aoeing large packs in both scenarios. For bosses in most dungeons you avoid the red, and choose to ignore adds or kill them, while dealing with a finite amount of unique mechanics.

So how do you create a special zone that allows all those things, is accessible to casuals but still retain difficulty or structure for difficult encounters?

What I want Eureka to be like:

1. Character Perpetual Progression- The ability to get stronger and stronger
2. Enemy Perpetual Difficulty- Different levels and stats for enemies, some killable for someone fresh,, and the deeper you venture they get stronger and stronger
3. Zones always max level- Whatever the current max level is in the game, this zone is always that. 70 for SB, 80 for next xpac, 90 for next xpac.
4. Claim system- There can be nothing semi open world and difficult, if players are allowed to outnumber enemies.
5. Advanced Enemy aggro- They aggro by sight, sound, true sight, true sound, low health, magic cast,etc.
6. Persistent enemy links- Enemies will link with no prejudice, if you aggro or pull a pack violating the aggro parameters.
7. Enemies hit harder than ever- Grouping will allow overcoming larger groups to an extent, but it should be very easy to become overwhelmed if enough enemies link or aggro regardless of party composition.
8. Enemies don't deaggro or reset- If you aggro or engage, they will engage you until you leave the zone, kill them, or get killed and their HP will not reset.

I read Eureka was supposed to have a quality of feeling similar to older generation mmorpgs. Well hopefully, the one they draw the most inspiration from is their own. Some of the things I listed apply to the open world for the most part, they did mention trials or raids within the Eureka content. I just hope that soloing can make constant progress, even if it is slower than grouping. I hope that progression is perpetual and self contained within Eureka. If they want you to be able to pull rewards out into the rest of the game, then say for a weapon or gear, they just kick it up to a really high ilevel when you bring it out of Eureka. I hope that there are no lockouts barring not being max level, so I have something to constantly progress towards while they are in between patches or expansion if I want a reason to play the game for hours and hours.

It's great SE does want you to take breaks from the game. But some of us are adults, if we wanna play the game lots, give us a reason to, don't deny us.