Dark Knight and Incoming Live Letter 4.2 on 12/15/17

[whiskeybravo]

It's not really 'whopping' once you consider that WAR and PLD have enmity multipliers outside of their actual enmity combo, and DRK doesn't. That 1650 enmity-potency they get from Dark Arts is pretty meager when you stack it up against a Warrior dealing 2600 enmity-potency in its opener with the two Onslaughts that are part of its max-DPS rotation, on top of an instant 600 enmity-potency on the pull using Equilibrium. That's twice the enmity that the DRK is getting from Dark Arts, and it's part of Warrior's optimum DPS opener. And DRK has to commit to losing 120 potency on a Power Slash combo before they even have the option to spend the additional 140 potency on DA Power Slash.

You're comparing a powered up 1 GCD attack to a 30 or 60 sec sequence of attacks.. Of course the grand total is going to favor the longer duration.

Neither Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block are optimal for DPS, so it follows that Power Slash wouldn't be either. IMO comparing DRK's enmity combo to the other tanks oGCDs that generate enmity is a bit disingenuous. Apples to oranges. The rate at which you could use DAPS is much, much higher than either of the other tanks can use those oGCDs. And it's twice as effective, right? So they'd only need to do it half as much (in a situation where'd we'd have to actually spam hate combo, which, I guess unfortunately for DRK doesn't exist).

I previously worked up some math before on butchers vs halone, I mean everyone talks about how bad it is for PLD to use Halone so I just wanted to get an idea. But aside from the difference in raw combo damage, and I think this is applicable to DRK as well, the MP cost is something that Warrior simply doesn't have to worry about. At the end of the day, just let the war MT. They are obviously designed for it, which is quite possibly the best thing for both PLD and DRK currently.

[Crater]

Neither Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block are optimal for DPS, so it follows that Power Slash wouldn't be either. IMO comparing DRK's enmity combo to the other tanks oGCDs that generate enmity is a bit disingenuous. Apples to oranges.

Okay but if I only have a stack of apples, and you have a stack of apples and a stack of oranges, and presumably we want things to be "fair", then at the very least, my stack of apples needs to be as big as your stack of apples combined with your stack of oranges. Right?

[Chrono_Rising]

Okay but if I only have a stack of apples, and you have a stack of apples and a stack of oranges, and presumably we want things to be "fair", then at the very least, my stack of apples needs to be as big as your stack of apples combined with your stack of oranges. Right?

I would rather they just give dark some oranges. Salted Earth seems like a good place, who doesn't like salty oranges.

[whiskeybravo]

Okay but if I only have a stack of apples, and you have a stack of apples and a stack of oranges, and presumably we want things to be "fair", then at the very least, my stack of apples needs to be as big as your stack of apples combined with your stack of oranges. Right?

Ostensibly.. Yes. But that would assume you like apples just as much as oranges, and we know that's not really the case

I mean I'm not for or against it one way or the other. Just pointing out how I see it. OK, war and pld have abilities used in their main rotation to help maintain aggro, and drk does not. But drk's main aggro combo is *potentially* twice as potent as the others. It's just more or less a wash IMO.

[Chrono_Rising]

Ostensibly.. Yes. But that would assume you like apples just as much as oranges, and we know that's not really the case

I mean I'm not for or against it one way or the other. Just pointing out how I see it. OK, war and pld have abilities used in their main rotation to help maintain aggro, and drk does not. But drk's main aggro combo is *potentially* twice as potent as the others. It's just more or less a wash IMO.

Its not a wash, you give up dps to do that combo and even more to get it to do double. If you need to sneak in a few extra to make up for missing aggro in your dps rotation then you are losing dps, which is very unequal.

[whiskeybravo]

Its not a wash, you give up dps to do that combo and even more to get it to do double. If you need to sneak in a few extra to make up for missing aggro in your dps rotation then you are losing dps, which is very unequal.

Each tank gives up dps to do their aggro combo. It's just PLD and DRK are affected more because potency difference is huge between threat/damage combos and also because their MP generation is hampered.

But even with "enmity" creep or whatever you want to call it, it's irrelevant because Shirk. If your OT is catching up it doesn't really matter.

If aggro was more of a problem in this game it might add some value to DAPS. But since that's largely not required it becomes an unimpressive ability with obscene cost.

[Valdegarde]

But even with "enmity" creep or whatever you want to call it, it's irrelevant because Shirk. So even if you OT is catching up it doesn't matter.

I agree, enmity doesn't tend to be that big of a deal. The problem is in principle, I brought it up because it's just another area Dark Knight is dead last. And it's being ignored on ALL fronts.

Another sort of functionally irrelevant but depressing bit of information is the SSS dummy HP, something I've brought up a couple times in other threads. Most of Dark Knight's dummies have the second lowest HP total of all classes, next to Astrologian. Why? This information doesn't affect real fights, but it's really depressing when over and over it seems that Dark Knight was designed purposely to be last for reasons that I'm not sure are even real reasons anymore.

The complete silence on this front is quickly surpassing the treatment of Paladins in Heavensward, as even as dark as those days were the team tended to imply they understood and were trying (although mostly failing) to rectify this. For close to half a year now the dialogue on Dark Knights has been either treating them completely invisible, or by stating they don't have any particular thoughts on the matter.

[Chrono_Rising]

Each tank gives up dps to do their aggro combo. It's just PLD and DRK are affected more because potency difference is huge between threat/damage combos and also because their MP generation is hampered.

But even with "enmity" creep or whatever you want to call it, it's irrelevant because Shirk. If your OT is catching up it doesn't really matter.

If aggro was more of a problem in this game it might add some value to DAPS. But since that's largely not required it becomes an unimpressive ability with obscene cost.

No where do I claim that it isn’t a dps lose for the other tanks. However, to do what the other tanks do for free Dark has to invest, shirk is great, but not always up when you want it. Aggro creep happens, but much more manageable on warrior and paladin.

And finally here is where apples don't equal oranges. As both Paladin and Warrior I have been able to pull and maintain hate with absolutely no enmity combo because of oGCD modifiers. You can also do it on dark knight, as you can probably guess, its harder.

[Jukebox12]

No where do I claim that it isn’t a dps lose for the other tanks. However, to do what the other tanks do for free Dark has to invest, shirk is great, but not always up when you want it. Aggro creep happens, but much more manageable on warrior and paladin.

It ain't just dark knight that loses mp or potency loss it's pld.

[Aana]

Ostensibly.. Yes. But that would assume you like apples just as much as oranges, and we know that's not really the case

I mean I'm not for or against it one way or the other. Just pointing out how I see it. OK, war and pld have abilities used in their main rotation to help maintain aggro, and drk does not. But drk's main aggro combo is *potentially* twice as potent as the others. It's just more or less a wash IMO.

But that is the 'choice' for a drk. War/pld will generate agro weather they need it or not.

My idea of Dev mind:
Pld: Circle of scorn is up. Guess ill hit the button. Medium damage. Medium Enmity.
Drk: Hey im OT and don't need enmity. Let me trade that DA power slash for DA BS and 'a LOT' of damage and 'zero' enmity.
AlsoDrk: Hey whm is healing almagest! I need enmity! Let me DA that enmity! DA PS for 'no damage' and 'a LOT of enmity'

RealDrk: DA the highest pot action always and forever to try to keep up damage with pld/war. Why do I feel so squishy and low enmity!?

The concept I still maintain is very good. The implementation is a little undertuned.

They balanced astro because they lock you into a stance for the fight. Real time ability to shift your stats around is very tricky to not over or undertone. It snowballs in the hands of great players REALLY fast to if you can real-time optimize vs a static set of skills like war/pld.