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  1. #1
    Player
    Zafire063's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    10
    Character
    Zafire Vanithil
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Llugen View Post
    NIN: 5% Trick Attack please, also shorten Shadewalker
    If they did that, the duration of the debuff would have to increase as well. Trick Attack would be basically identical to MCH Vulnerability (5% 10 secs every minute vs 5% 20 secs every 2mins). Why bring a melee when a ranged can do exactly the same thing, and has more damage to boot? If anything they should give trick attack to another class too.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Silver-Strider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,753
    Character
    Silver Strider
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire063 View Post
    If they did that, the duration of the debuff would have to increase as well. Trick Attack would be basically identical to MCH Vulnerability (5% 10 secs every minute vs 5% 20 secs every 2mins). Why bring a melee when a ranged can do exactly the same thing, and has more damage to boot? If anything they should give trick attack to another class too.
    Because of LB penalty?
    Because NIN still has Shadewalker, Smokebomb and Slash debuff?
    Because it's still 30 seconds of extra damage every 2 minutes vs just 20 seconds with MCH alone?
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    Zafire063's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    10
    Character
    Zafire Vanithil
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    Because of LB penalty?
    Because NIN still has Shadewalker, Smokebomb and Slash debuff?
    Because it's still 30 seconds of extra damage every 2 minutes vs just 20 seconds with MCH alone?
    SAM and WAR can provide slashing debuff. Are you saying Shadewalker/Smokescreen is worth a raid spot by itself? I can't even think of a scenario besides Neo-Exdeath where if you use it at the pull and forget about it nothing bad happens. If they wanted to make enmity control our niche the CD's would have to be lowered significantly. Even then, not really sure if that'd be worth a raid spot over superior damage.

    There is always going to be a meta, I don't see anyone complaining about BRD's >.>
    (2)

  4. #4
    Player
    Remedi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    2,556
    Character
    Remedi Maxwell
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire063 View Post
    If they did that, the duration of the debuff would have to increase as well. Trick Attack would be basically identical to MCH Vulnerability (5% 10 secs every minute vs 5% 20 secs every 2mins). Why bring a melee when a ranged can do exactly the same thing, and has more damage to boot? If anything they should give trick attack to another class too.
    Maybe they can make them cancel each other making so you don't have to bring a NIN to a party
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Karshan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    416
    Character
    Lina Kirell
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire063 View Post
    If they did that, the duration of the debuff would have to increase as well. Trick Attack would be basically identical to MCH Vulnerability (5% 10 secs every minute vs 5% 20 secs every 2mins). Why bring a melee when a ranged can do exactly the same thing, and has more damage to boot? If anything they should give trick attack to another class too.
    Because that would be the exact intention ? Put an end to guaranteed raid spots and put up a rotating meta instead of that one trusting top spot for over a year now ? (NIN being a guaranteed spot for too long now).

    With this change on TA (alongside with a buff to solo DPS of NIN to compensate) NIN would be in competition with MCH, not going alongside MCH, with also BRD, oh and DRG to go with double ranged, and Ooooh no more DPS spots AAAANNNND we've got tha same A team as forever. Almost got something different though
    (0)
    Last edited by Karshan; 12-04-2017 at 07:48 PM.

  6. #6
    Player
    Idolon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    59
    Character
    Rinh Maimhov
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Karshan View Post
    With this change on TA (alongside with a buff to solo DPS of NIN to compensate) NIN would be in competition with MCH, not going alongside MCH, with also BRD, oh and DRG to go with double ranged
    If we want to end NIN's guaranteed spot, we have to do something about its aggro tools, not just Trick Attack. Allowing your main tank to pull in DPS stance is a significant damage gain, though it's difficult to calculate exactly how much.

    From data people have collected using 3rd party tools I won't risk naming here, the raid DPS contributed by party buffs from each job, as a percentage of the total raid DPS, is roughly:

    AST (1-3%) > DRG w/ MCH and BRD (~2.5%) > BRD = NIN in perfectly synchronized group (~2%) > DRG w/ MCH or BRD (~1.9%) > NIN = MCH (1.5-1.7%) > SCH (1-1.7%) > DRG (~1%) > MNK = RDM (~0.8%) > SMN (~0.5%)

    Note that this does not account for shadewalker. If NIN had no aggro tools, it would be fairly even with MCH.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    Sylvain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    1,491
    Character
    Sylvestre Solscribe
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Idolon View Post
    Allowing your main tank to pull in DPS stance is a significant damage gain, though it's difficult to calculate exactly how much.
    I hardly see how 1 (maybe 2) threat under dps stance can be a "significant" dps gain over the course of a 6+min fight.
    Assuming a 2.5 recast time, a fight with 6min of damage done, we have 144 GCD
    Let say it saves 2 threat combo and that, to be very generous, dps combo without tank stance would do 50% more damage. We have
    full dps : 144 dps combo
    threat start : 138 dps combo, 6 threat combo
    With DPS combo doing 50% more, 6 threat combo would deal 77% of 6 dps combo resulting 4.8 dps combo. Let say you can't land the 0.8 so only 4!
    We have 144 GCD vs 142, we loose 2 GCD
    That's 1.4% more damage.

    I hardly see how 1.4% tank dps can be considered "significant" damage.


    And this simple calculation made the gruesome assumption that overall, dps combo would deal 50% more than threat combo under tank stance.
    I'm sure it's different from Job to Job, but I hardly believe this is the case.
    And even if it is the case,again. We'll hardly reach 2% dps, and this is for a rather short fight of 6min.

    I'm sure that by simply looking at some log we can actually see how much of a difference it does, and I would be extremely surprised it makes a big difference.

    ---------
    However, I agree on everything else. I do not say NIN threat management isn't powerful. It is very useful BUT, saying that it allows to significantly increase the group dps by allowing the tank to not go in tank stance at all and save 1-2 threat combo is a tad bit far fetched.
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    Legion88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,527
    Character
    Baradaeg Ryssbhirwyn
    World
    Lich
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvain View Post
    snip
    TA is around 1,5% gain, Hypercharge the same.
    If you say 1,4% MT damage gain (0,15 to 0,2% RDPS) is not worth considering just because it seems tiny is beyond me, especially because the tank can also take advantage of the opener buffs from the party more effective.
    (1)
    Last edited by Legion88; 12-05-2017 at 05:59 PM.

  9. #9
    Player
    Sylvain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    1,491
    Character
    Sylvestre Solscribe
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion88 View Post
    TA is around 1,5% gain, Hypercharge the same.
    If you say 1,4% MT damage gain (0,15 to 0,2% RDPS) is not worth considering just because it seems tiny is beyond me, especially because the tank can also take advantage of the opener buffs from the party more effective.
    First, I didn't talk about TA and HC value in raid. These are very strong and valuable.


    I said that saying "NIN threat generation will increase Tank dps significantly" is a bit far fetched. And this was making some gruesome assumption such as "1 dps combo does 50% more damage 1 threat combo"which is not true

    Just to take DRK (the tank i'm the most familiar with)
    Threat combo does 670 potency
    DPS combo does 700 potency (536 effective potency with Grit, -20% damage)
    The dps combo then deals 30% more damage.
    You can argue about min maxing the Dark Art and mana gained from the dps combo vs threat combo, AA etc but I doubt this will result in the threat combo (under grit) effectively dealing 50% less damage than the dps combo.

    This was also considering a fight with 6min of effective GCD on the boss. The longer the fight, smaller the gain will be.

    My point was NIN threat management is a strong tool in threat management, not in raid dps gain. (spare nich situation)
    Increasing the tank dps by, at best, 2% is NOT a significant raid dps increase. It can be a useful dps gain on an add (OS3 for instance), but over the course of a fight the damage gain will be trivial. Therefor, NIN threat generation tool should be balanced around its usefulness and not the trivial damage it brings to the raid because 0.15~0.2% raid dps is not a significant it is a dps gain, but it is not significant.

    Your raid dps will vary more from your AST card draw or how many more crit your SCH libra allowed to land. (sometime it's 0, sometime it's all attack)


    If you fail a boss and wipe from enrage at 0.1%, the cause will most likely not be "our tank didnt do 300 more potency, nothing else could have been done to compensate our tank 3 GCD damage loss from its threat combo".

    There will be a long list of minor things that happened throughout the fight, the eventual dps gained from NIN threat skill could be added to the list, but a dps dying once, failing one GCD, your healer missing a few DoT uptime, etc etc etc, abad crit streak from a single dps, even poor card draw (chain aoe spire/ewer).
    This will have a significant impact on the raid dps.



    That's it, so NIN threat tool on tank pull it is a dps gain, but it is a trivial dps gain and should be considered as such.
    (0)
    Last edited by Sylvain; 12-05-2017 at 07:50 PM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvain View Post
    That's it, so NIN threat tool on tank pull it is a dps gain, but it is a trivial dps gain and should be considered as such.
    It's also used to prevent Samurai / Monk overtake, not just on Tank pulls. Forcing a tank into more threat combos because the job doesn't have a threat drop is a loss that happens after the pull, and proper use of smokebomb and shadewalker extend beyond opener math.

    This also doesn't account for snap aggro for adds which in turn allows you to start blasting much earlier. An implicit gain.
    (0)