Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Remedi]

Yes BLM can in theory ress an infinite number of times in umbral, but it needs to sacrifice resources to combat movements in order to do it which might be a problem later, not to mention the need of beign in umbral AND the target loss, if you ppl shun mana shift from BLM because these very reasons by saying that we are the actually worst users of that despite the infinite MP I don't see why it shouldn't be the same thing here.
This is would be a balanced situation because you would have the option but it wouldn't come without setbacks for you.

That's why I say it works and since it's simple it shouldn't take much time off them.
I understand ppl wanting things to be complex so that they can have depths, but I'll tell the best mehcanics in the game are those that works and sometimes keep it simple makes them works the best.

Also frankly the only reason SMN has access to raise is because SCH had to have it while for RDM it's because it's a staple white magic that they had access to and they wanted to recreate the feeling of it, I wouldn't burn my hand for them giving ress to casters because they like the idea since honestly they had no thought on the raise repercussion when they reduced R3 MP cost at all (especially since they didn't foresee the effect on dissipation when they reduced summon MP cost)

Tbh I'm still partly sure ppl are not thinking about raise in the right way and not seeing the repercussions it has on gameplay, especially how objectively broken dualcast raise can be, hopefully they'll realize the problem unless we want instant wipe mechanics to creep even to autoattacks

[Llugen]

I mean I was preaching about Rez Dispenser(tm) being insane at the beginning of 4.0, to be sure, but what's MORE insane is that RDM has access to it and BLM gets nothing at all, and like you said now that they adjusted SMN's MP dump, losing 130 potency on SMN isn't the end of the world. We're really just arguing in circles about it, at this point, but I really do think they are much less likely to remove it than they are to give in and add a raise ability on BLM.


I just don't want to be "required" to prog on RDM in 4.2 man. Granted I'll probably just do it on SMN over RDM anyway if things stay the way they are, but as I said before, let the BLMs be BLMs and let the RDMs be RDMs. No one should have to play a job they don't like, and the caster role is basically expected to be able to spot raise if possible at this point, so BLM needs to be able to compete on that front (call me a broken record again).

If you're the raid leader and you're trying to set up your comp, are you really looking for a Black Mage to fill the caster slot? ESPECIALLY if you already have a weeb class (affectionately named, which is like everyone and their brother during the weeb expac)? No, you're going to look and say "Ok, so BLM can bring damage but SMN damage is actually stronger/just as strong, AND devotion+radiant shield increases our damage for the party and the 5 physical damage users (respectively), plus they can spot raise if both healers die or are occupied (Almagest ticks, etc). RDM might be pretty weak but it can increase our entire party damage even more (or it should be able to), and it can raise/spot vercure basically anytime it wants with basically no cost at all. Besides, we already have a weeb class for the raw damage, and weeb class damage is even stronger anyway." It literally makes no logical sense to take BLM in the slot in any way shape or form.

[Shiroe]

give blm a "dark" rez (low cast time 2.0-1.75 sec and lowish mp cost, but can not be swiftcasted) with RNG (!)..., so it will only be asked for from the healers if absolutely needed...

RNG: blm dark rez either A) gives the rezed a 20% damage increase + takes 20% more damage for 15 sec
OR B) reduces the rezed damage by 20% but buffs its overall defense by 20% for 15 sec

(random if the rezed gets A) or B), but after the 15 sec buff/debuff, weakness continues for the remaining 45 sec)

that way, its a risk, that healers / the group might want to take or not ask the blm to rez)

[Remedi]

I mean I was preaching about Rez Dispenser(tm) being insane at the beginning of 4.0, to be sure, but what's MORE insane is that RDM has access to it and BLM gets nothing at all, and like you said now that they adjusted SMN's MP dump, losing 130 potency on SMN isn't the end of the world. We're really just arguing in circles about it, at this point, but I really do think they are much less likely to remove it than they are to give in and add a raise ability on BLM.

Ye, we simply have a different way on how to solve the conundrum, in the end I want it gone because it trivializes mechanics too much while you want it applied to all casters to balance them out

[Llugen]

Indeed, but what you consider to be "trivializing" is rather conservative, in my opinion. Weakness is still very taxing, and although fights are more recoverable due to more prevalence of raising and MP management etc, not to mention the aforementioned paradigm shift from Titan/Leviathan days to Sophia/Ozma days, I don't see it as "trivializing" unless damage numbers are still almost as high and speeds are still almost as fast (which they really aren't). The actual clearing of content should be a given (save for Ultimate), so in my eyes it "trivializes" nothing.

The only exception here is as I said before when sacrifice strats are used (Compressed Water, Royal Pentacle). THIS is absolutely a trivialization of mechanics, make no mistake, but there needs to be another way to address this.

[Remedi]

Put it this way, you can resurrect some1 with healers or SMN once every minute, while on RDM virtually everytime some1 dies to a mechanic can be resurrected, this makes death more of a nuisance than a punishment.
Titan EX (and hm) taught players how to be better at the game and it wasn't just beign pushed out of bonds, you had very low chance of recovery even with diying to other mechanics. It taught you to be a better player and was essentially a game changer because up till there you never had situations like that.
You mention the paradigm shift of Sophia and Ozma and tbh it can be alright since they are mostly midcore content and pugged by most which means ppl are less reactive, but on savage and above I don't think is really needed (or at least I would keep using deathwalls on the final boss, since you know he's the end). I don't think more safety net were needed in the game however than that, as I said death should be a punishment and not a minor incovinience, you stood in the wrong place at the wrong time and paid the price and for that the entire group has to suffer, that is a good lesson for everyone.

The reason I say it trivializes content is that you risk to run in a direction where either a failed mechanic kills the entire raid or 3/4 of it or you can brute force the fight with chain ress, honestly after lucrezia said that they were able to raise 20 times in a fight and brute force the mechanics to see more of ultimate I couldn't stop thinking that it was just too much and something has to be done, frankly speaking since most ppl believe that you have to bring a RDM for the raises it kinda validates my concerns as such in my opinion this possibility should be done away or changed to be less impactful on gameplay.

edit:Compressed water and royal pentacle are also a failure on the players part since they should have told SE to fix them, If ppl wants PTR they should also be objective and be ready to point out unintended ways to deal with a fight, while SE should be less lenient when this tings happens

edit2: this is also not considering the fact that essentially they have made a highly anticipated versatile job into a rez dispenser which is shameful tbh

[Llugen]

A combination of players complaining that content is too hard and complaining that content is too easy has certainly gotten us collectively into some sticky situations (including but not limited to the "worsening" of the playerbase at large), no doubt about that. And you're right it should have been SE's responsibility to address things like Compressed Water and Royal Pentacle. Thankfully we haven't seen any real sac strats yet in 4.x, so let's bring that back up when it happens.



To put it as simply as possible, you're of the mindset that recovery is too valuable therefore it should be nerfed, and I'm of the mindset that recovery is too valuable therefore it should be balanced. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance, but it is apparent that Square Enix does, so we should be treading accordingly.


Players/groups are GOING to bring recovery strats if they are available, particularly in progression, period. So if they are available, they should be balanced for the job (my mindset), and if they are not available, then it makes no difference (your mindset). Currently, they are available (and it doesn't look like SE intends to change that), so they should be balanced for the role, and I think SE should be focusing on that (if only grudgingly).

[Remedi]

Well not quite, I think that too much recovery is bad and we are in that kind of spectrum right now, in my opinion HW was more balanced because it was useful but you could prog without it just fine, now seems to be mandatory to as said brute force the fight.
I have no problem with some recovery beign in the game, for example LB3 healer is fine even though it's essentially a second chance for the group because you cannot spam it and it requires charging, but dualcast raise can essentially be traslated to:
Every time some1 dies in the party you can resurrect him.
That's why I say it's too much, I know that realistically it's not that in a fight but truly that how you can translate dualcast raise in a possible scenario, it doesn't happen this way with healer and/or SMN raises and that is wat creating the imbalance

[Llugen]

In HW there was no Rez Dispenser(tm) there was only SMN which had to sacrifice a pretty significant amount of MP that could have been used for Ruin III. That all shifted when they decided to introduce our favorite candy holder.

I had originally proposed that the Dualcast trait just not work with Verraise and Vercure, and then make Verraise the same MP cost and cast time as the other raise spells. However, now that they removed SMN MP dump and STILL haven't changed Dualcast, it makes more sense to just concede the option to BLM, preferably with a damage increase-style twist.

[zuzu-bq]

Dying was also more punishing for a greater part of HW, having two of the three raid tiers, being Gordias and Midas, having mechanics and DPS checks punishing you if you had some deaths here and there. While Creator had almost no death punishment we then got Deltascape as Stormblood's first raid tier. On top of being a highly forgiving raid just like it's predecessor we also got the introduction of a job that can rapid fire raises, something we never had before.

Even on the fact weakness is now a bigger of a burden for damage, the combination of the removal of HP penalty plus raise mage plus forgiving raid mechanics all made this mentality that having a DPS job to raise is amazing... when it really isn't. It's just something neat for progression that RDM can abuse on. Not that but RDM's already low DPS suffers a lot from it, something mentioned at the first couple pages of this thread. RDM is a popular job, but its popularity was solidified by all of this, having a physical buff (even if it's weak) that was overhyped before it's launch and overall people wanting it since ARR.

It's not something you can fix giving a Raise for a job that has no meaning on having it like BLM. SMN is not being played because they can raise, they're being played simply by being the best mage right now. They on top of that happen to have Raise. Once you have a fight that Raising won't let you push throught it (hi Ultimate) that ability seems just to be there instead as a small extra help instead of an important part of progression like it was on Deltascape for many groups.