Can we please get more cool looking outfits for male characters?

[Serilda]

But is it really so hard to believe that maybe the actual demand for female glamours is just higher than that of male glamours? I mean, women's clothing departments are much larger than men's in the real world, even though men actually spend more on clothes.

Also, again, the fact that the game used to be very gender balanced and has skewed towards women implies that that is what the market actually favors. Clearly Square Enix didn't have a glamour bias at the start of 2.0, where do you suppose it came from?

Why are clothing departments for women bigger in the real world? The conventional thinking is that it's because women like to buy clothes. It's a massive generalisation and one which self-propogates.

In FFXIV, however, there is no rule saying that girls who like guys, guys who like guys, girls who like girls or any other configuration of gender/preference necessarily matches their character's gender. Their character gender is a completely arbitrary flag (especially in the case of Lalafell, who use the exact same model for both genders anyway and should never be genderlocked out of any gear ever). Whether I'm male or female in real life has no relationship whatsoever to my desire to dress up in FFXIV. The FF series has always dressed both male and female characters beautifully in a mix of masculine and feminine clothing, and attracted people of all preferences and tastes as a result. It's practically one of the hallmarks of the series.

An in-game glamour bias appearing during ARR makes no sense commercially, because they believed at the time (by their own admission) that the gender split was equal if not in favour of male characters, and they weren't making extra money from the in-game items (any argument that it might get more theoretical sign-ups from female characters could be countered by the amount of money lost dealing with people like myself who end up ragequitting and swearing off all future S-E products). It would definitely have taken more man hours to adapt the Best Man's Suit to the female form than to set the bunny ears to work on all genders, since they don't even need remodelling - just positioning slightly, and the Japanese fans were specifically promised that it would be done 'as a priority' back in 2015, which to me shows intent to either delibrately mislead all of the players with male characters or some serious failure to prioritise. However, either way it's not something you say when your intention is to deliberately favour female characters. If that were the case, I would have had infinitely more respect for Yoshida if he had just said 'no bunny ears, all female characters are played by women and only women wear clothes IRL' back then rather than leading me on for years by pretending to understand the issue.

A cash shop glamour bias appearing after the outcry over the in-game bias also makes no sense to me, because they cannot possibly have enough data to compare how worthwhile it is when they have been phoning the male options in for so long. I never bought any of the male-only cash shop glamours because they didn't arrive until after I was embroiled in this problem of being treated like a second class customer; I didn't buy Aymeric's (which I actively like) because to do so would have accepted the insult of S-E releasing his hairstyle as a unisex item against all of their own supposed principles. I buy - well, bought, not spending a single cent there any more - tons of other unisex and fluff items on the cash shop and as merchandise tie-ins, but gender locked items don't work in the favour of anyone with a male character. And since other people openly fantasia to gain access to be better glamours, any stats from the cash shop broken down by character gender are questionable.

Will people spend more on better items? Yes. That is absolutely unquestionable. Do female glamours always have to look better than male ones? I don't think they do. The women (and gentlemen of discerning taste) who shop in those vast womens clothing departments in the real world could appreciate finely tailored menswear too, and unlike the real world a game lets them actually wear it and have it fit them properly no matter what their shape. The designers are capable of this. The High House Justaucorps looks just as good as the Bustle. The Songbird outfits for both genders look great. The South Seas Talisman is a very acceptable masculine alternative to the bikini top it replaces. If we didn't know they were capable of good work, we'd believe them more readily when they suddenly act as though fair treatment is impossible. If it really is that hard to make a bunny suit or bustier fit the male form, I am happy to break out Blender and adapt some using nothing but existing in-game assets if they want help. They have already modelled all of the parts I'd need to do it.

If the game has changed from the one I first joined, and S-E is no longer intending on catering for 'all of the players' as everyone is suggesting, they need to be much more clear about this than then have been historically. It's not fair to mislead us with platitudes and broken promises.

[Talraen]

I never bought any of the male-only cash shop glamours because they didn't arrive until after I was embroiled in this problem of being treated like a second class customer; I didn't buy Aymeric's (which I actively like) because to do so would have accepted the insult of S-E releasing his hairstyle as a unisex item against all of their own supposed principles.

I wanted to touch on this separately, because this is the crux of my issue with what you're arguing. I use Aymeric's hairstyle, because it is by far my favorite female hairstyle in the game. It's the only thing I've ever bought from the store and have never changed since. I spent a ton of extra money and got a bunch of gear I can't even use in order to get that hairstyle. (Though to be honest I wouldn't have used the gear anyway, because I don't find it at all appealing.)

Why would denying me that make you feel better? Why do I need to suffer so you can feel like a first class citizen? You want me to not have access to something I want so you can have exclusive access, even though you're not even using it. Who is the winner here?

More glamours is good. Less locks is good. Calling for more locks because you're mad that you're locked out of something else is bad. That's not fairness, that's pettiness.

[BillyKaplan]

I mean, you're not wrong. But the "same reason these situations exist in real life" comment is kind of important here. Do you think that offering a few more male glamours in FFXIV is going to solve this age-old issue, even only within the context of FFXIV?

This game is riddled with that sort of thing so even if we get some decent male glamours (or just keep the few decent ones male-locked for a change) it won't change the fact that the game thinks enjoying the male physique is wrong like in the last summer event, or writing female characters as damsels in distress despite being war heroes, or fridging, etc, etc. But ultimately that sort of thing, while leaving a lasting impression, is only a small portion of how I spend my time in this game. Seeing my chara, as well as others', running around in attractive, stylish glamours made for male characters, finding myself actually Examining male characters instead of only female characters, and not feeling like I have to apologize to the game for enjoying seeing guys dress nice would certainly be a step in the right direction in making a lot of players feel more welcome than we do right now.

Why would denying me that make you feel better?

Schadenfreude. But more seriously...
It won't, but then again, that's not the point here. The point here is that Minfillia and Y'shtola's SB hairstyles remain gender locked despite there being a precedent for hairstyles to be gender-neutral while the rest of the outfit is not. Meanwhile I'm sure that if enough people asked for Thancred's hair to be unlocked for ladies, it would, if it's not already.
Lock everything so it's fair, or unlock everything for that same fairness. Otherwise it's the exact double standard at the core of this issue.

[Talraen]

...or writing female characters as damsels in distress despite being war heroes, or fridging, etc, etc.

I'm genuinely curious what you're referring to here.

Lock everything so it's fair, or unlock everything for that same fairness. Otherwise it's the exact double standard at the core of this issue.

I think it's very obvious which of those we should be arguing for.

[BillyKaplan]

I'm genuinely curious what you're referring to here.

Moen was killed for Urianger to have a personality. Yda/Lyse is about the most stubborn, rash, hotheaded thing in existence... until she needs Thancred to drag her away instead of, you know, rushing towards Papalymo alongside the WoL (the option I picked) and have Papalymo knock the both of us back. Two examples that didn't sit right with me, off the top of my head.

I think it's very obvious which of those we should be arguing for.

Agreed. But I'd settle for some nice male-exclusive items first because that'll be easier for them than going back and unlocking everything.

[Talraen]

Moen was killed for Urianger to have a personality. Yda/Lyse is about the most stubborn, rash, hotheaded thing in existence... until she needs Thancred to drag her away instead of, you know, rushing towards Papalymo alongside the WoL (the option I picked) and have Papalymo knock the both of us back. Two examples that didn't sit right with me, off the top of my head.

Oh I thought you were referring to something with the Warrior of Light specifically. But yeah those are fair examples.

Agreed. But I'd settle for some nice male-exclusive items first because that'll be easier for them than going back and unlocking everything.

Why would that be easier? At worst they'd need to model everything for the opposite gender, which in many cases (e.g., all of the original scions except Minfilia) is a complete non-issue because they were using standard 1.0 non-gender-locked gear anyway. And if that is actually a lot of work, then continuing to make exclusive models now just increases the barrier to solving that problem later.

[BillyKaplan]

Why would that be easier? At worst they'd need to model everything for the opposite gender, which in many cases (e.g., all of the original scions except Minfilia) is a complete non-issue because they were using standard 1.0 non-gender-locked gear anyway. And if that is actually a lot of work, then continuing to make exclusive models now just increases the barrier to solving that problem later.

Releasing everything currently out as gender unlocked, which might include designing new outfits outright
Or
Releasing several few gender locked items for guys to pacify the masses until a more solid solution is established
Which is easier?

Obviously the ideal is that no outfit will be gender locked moving on, or at the very least, no outfit will be on its lonesome. You don't want guys wearing Lyse's outfit? Fine, give us a matching set alongside it. Doesn't even have to be a different NPC's, could just be a variation that's different enough to not really be that NPC's outfit, sort of like how they'd have to come up with something for Edda as the closest would be Avere and the only time we saw him with a body, he was wearing regular tank gear.

[Serilda]

At worst they'd need to model everything for the opposite gender, which in many cases (e.g., all of the original scions except Minfilia) is a complete non-issue because they were using standard 1.0 non-gender-locked gear anyway. And if that is actually a lot of work, then continuing to make exclusive models now just increases the barrier to solving that problem later.

Absolutely true, and I agree with your principles; just not the optimism that continuing to do what we've been doing for years is ever going to change anything any more. If moving a couple of bunny ears can't be squeezed in despite releasing two entire expansions and yet another female-only bunny suit in the interim, I dread to think how long it would take them to actually sort out this completely avoidable problem when they still seem to be stuck on the idea that we're all requesting female-only gear somehow as SenorPatty said:

I ask this because we're getting the impression that the top factor here seems be SE getting the impression that we want more fem glams when the population's has actually been requesting unisex and/or more male glam to equate the fem glam numbers.

Even the relatively gentle Japanese forums now have the issue where every post about a new female-only glamour ends up derailed by people asking what on earth they're doing about the guys. We all know that, as you say, making most of this stuff unisex wouldn't be a terrifically difficult operation. I would be happy to wake up to the news that everything had been unlocked and they were boosting their equal opportunity glamour game permanently going forwards (which is why I think unlocking all gloves/hats/boots would be an excellent start, since everyone gets something new with minimal effort and I love long boots). But literally thousands of posts begging for this end up with the conclusion being that we actually all just want more locked stuff, it feels fruitless. I complained bitterly about Minfilia's hair at the time, along with everyone else. The only result I saw? Fixing it... for Aymeric. Thanks, S-E. I want you guys to get Hien's costume too (heck, have the stubble too) but when we keep getting told that we're too much effort to bother with, simply flicking a switch to make it a problem for the other half of the userbase too feels as though it's the only way left to get results.

I do hope they never release another race for this game until they sort their processes out, both for design (I'm cool with androgynous-looking clothes, some guys and girls want more classically masculine looks to be available) and for implementation. Announcing another race when they're too stretched to cater for half of the existing ones would be a disaster.

It annoys me more each time I log into the game, because releasing multiple updates which force the players to see banners with female-only goodies right on the launcher really doesn't make it easy to forget the longstanding issue exists.

[Serilda]

I wanted to touch on this separately, because this is the crux of my issue with what you're arguing. I use Aymeric's hairstyle, because it is by far my favorite female hairstyle in the game. It's the only thing I've ever bought from the store and have never changed since.

Why would denying me that make you feel better? Why do I need to suffer so you can feel like a first class citizen? You want me to not have access to something I want so you can have exclusive access, even though you're not even using it. Who is the winner here?

I have a very specific reason for being salty about Aymeric's hair. In my case, I would have loved to use Minfilia's hair. It ticks all of my boxes, being intricate, not really short and yet not clipping through every single collar in the game. It doesn't have an annoying headband or wispy parts which would clip my ears like most of the in-game updos I can use. It's not especially 'manly', but I'm a 2m tall elezen dude; I don't care about that. There are hardly any hairstyles in the game which fit the bill, just like Aymeric's hairstyle is special for you. I think Aymeric's hair looks good on girls going for a tomboy aesthetic. I also think that Minfilia's would have looked good on guys going for the opposite.

I would have zero problem whatsoever with the Aymeric thing if they had not set a precedent with Minfilia's hair and then made a special exception the very first time a male-only outfit with unique hair got released without a female equivalent (Thancred/Y'shtola cancel out, those sets were fine even though in an ideal world everything would be unisex). Minfilia's useless costume is only one item so it wouldn't even penalise me too much on inventory. I would definitely have bought it. Selling it locked on the basis that NPC styles should be true to the original character - so much so that we can't even dye them - then seeing them immediately making new rules when only female characters could benefit is a perfect example of how messed up this game has become.

So no, I'm not happy at the idea of players with female characters being locked out of items they might really love, like Aymeric's hair or the Gambler set or the only smart suit girls have access to in the game. But I do feel we'd get less pushback on these issues and more fellow gamers speaking up with us if the issue affected everyone, not just half of everyone.

(And I am salty at the moment, I know, but since I just decided to upset my entire FC and stop renewing a sub to a game I would otherwise love I feel that my annoyance, three long years and over a thousand posts in the making, is understandable. I feel like I know all of the other people who have been fighting for this stuff on the forums over the years personally at this point even though we'll never meet in the game. It's ridiculous that it's still an issue.)

[Talraen]

I have a very specific reason for being salty about Aymeric's hair. In my case, I would have loved to use Minfilia's hair. It ticks all of my boxes, being intricate, not really short and yet not clipping through every single collar in the game. It doesn't have an annoying headband or wispy parts which would clip my ears like most of the in-game updos I can use. It's not especially 'manly', but I'm a 2m tall elezen dude; I don't care about that. There are hardly any hairstyles in the game which fit the bill, just like Aymeric's hairstyle is special for you. I think Aymeric's hair looks good on girls going for a tomboy aesthetic. I also think that Minfilia's would have looked good on guys going for the opposite.

I would have zero problem whatsoever with the Aymeric thing if they had not set a precedent with Minfilia's hair and then made a special exception the very first time a male-only outfit with unique hair got released without a female equivalent (Thancred/Y'shtola cancel out, those sets were fine even though in an ideal world everything would be unisex). Minfilia's useless costume is only one item so it wouldn't even penalise me too much on inventory. I would definitely have bought it. Selling it locked on the basis that NPC styles should be true to the original character - so much so that we can't even dye them - then seeing them immediately making new rules when only female characters could benefit is a perfect example of how messed up this game has become.

So no, I'm not happy at the idea of players with female characters being locked out of items they might really love, like Aymeric's hair or the Gambler set or the only smart suit girls have access to in the game. But I do feel we'd get less pushback on these issues and more fellow gamers speaking up with us if the issue affected everyone, not just half of everyone.

I feel you on this (obviously), but let's argue for them to unlock Minfilia's hair, and while we're at it, everything else. I see your point about the issue affecting everyone giving it visibility, but I just don't like that tactic.

(And I am salty at the moment, I know, but since I just decided to upset my entire FC and stop renewing a sub to a game I would otherwise love I feel that my annoyance, three long years and over a thousand posts in the making, is understandable. I feel like I know all of the other people who have been fighting for this stuff on the forums over the years personally at this point even though we'll never meet in the game. It's ridiculous that it's still an issue.)

Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but hopefully there will eventually be some happy resolution to all this.