When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

[Felis]

Having oGCDs that are rarely usable is bad, because they waste space.

But having 6+ weaponskills that cannot be used except during every third to fourth GCD is good, because "they're combos"?

And still get more used than the most used oGCD skill

[Shurrikhan]

Missing the point entirely.

I find it more engaging and less boring/mind-numbing to have multiple buttons to press; it has nothing to do with “difficulty”, since I don’t find it particularly difficult to press the amount of buttons we have now. I do not want condensed combos, and neither do a lot of other posters here. It’s fine if they want to make it an optional feature rather than a mandatory one like it is in the new PvP. But make it mandatory, and I doubt I’ll enjoy PvE content where I can do an entire job’s opener/rotation in 3 buttons or less.

If there would be something wrong with toolkits actually looking only as complex as they are, then isn't that an issue first and foremost with the toolkits themselves?

Why is the warped mirror so preferable to actual complexity? Why curtail our chances to see more engaging decisions behind our rotations just to protect the imitation of dynamics or breadth across our button-flow? When did pretense become more important than actual depth of play available? Is our goal here to maximize the appearance of depth while minimizing actual difficulty?

You say it has nothing with difficulty, but there are only so many buttons available to maintain a comfortable keyspace or retain impact across individual ability decisions; what bloat we purposely leave restricts ability to create anything meaningful in future additions, and leaves precedent for wasteful and poorly-integrated design.

[HyoMinPark]

If there would be something wrong with toolkits actually looking only as complex as they are, then isn't that an issue first and foremost with the toolkits themselves?

Why is the warped mirror so preferable to actual complexity? Why curtail our chances to see more engaging decisions behind our rotations just to protect the imitation of dynamics or breadth across our button-flow? When did pretense become more important than actual depth of play available? Is our goal here to maximize the appearance of depth while minimizing actual difficulty?

You say it has nothing with difficulty, but there are only so many buttons available to maintain a comfortable keyspace or retain impact across individual ability decisions; what bloat we purposely leave restricts ability to create anything meaningful in future additions, and leaves precedent for wasteful and poorly-integrated design.

I’m sorry, I fail to see how “in-depth” a system is where all my buttons are condensed into pressing the same button 3 times in a row, and then pressing another button 3 times in a row, and then another button 3 times in a row, and so on. How is that “complex”? How is that “in-depth”? I’m not saying the current system is complex, nor am I saying it’s “in-depth”; I’m saying I find it more mentally engaging—engaging, not complex—to be able to press multiple buttons, rather than the same button 3 times in a row. A PvP-like system of condensed combos is mind-numbing in my opinion; I would check out mentally pretty quickly with such a system.

There are still skills that can be trimmed from job’s toolkits in future expansions. Quite honestly, since they got rid of the damage behind Repelling Shot, it’s not even on my bar. I can “repel” myself away from a boss/melee-distance AOE (e.g., “Delta Attack” in V4S) by using my analog stick. Skills that bind enemies like RDM’s Tether and BLM’s Freeze are so poor/useless in party or endgame content that a lot of people don’t even use them. Straighter Shot procs on BRD could be changed to Refulgent Arrow to reduce button bloat, even though BRD doesn’t have button bloat.

To create “anything meaningful in future additions” doesn’t necessarily mean “add more skills”. Jobs can be made “more meaningful” or “more interesting” without having to add 5 new abilities every expansion.

[popotaro]

Omg. This is really getting annoying.

NO. NO. NO.

End the non-sense already please.

[Shurrikhan]

I’m sorry, I fail to see how “in-depth” a system is where all my buttons are condensed into pressing the same button 3 times in a row, and then pressing another button 3 times in a row, and then another button 3 times in a row, and so on. How is that “complex”? How is that “in-depth”? I’m not saying the current system is complex, nor am I saying it’s “in-depth”; I’m saying I find it more mentally engaging—engaging, not complex—to be able to press multiple buttons, rather than the same button 3 times in a row. A PvP-like system of condensed combos is mind-numbing in my opinion; I would check out mentally pretty quickly with such a system.

There are still skills that can be trimmed from job’s toolkits in future expansions. Quite honestly, since they got rid of the damage behind Repelling Shot, it’s not even on my bar. I can “repel” myself away from a boss/melee-distance AOE (e.g., “Delta Attack” in V4S) by using my analog stick. Skills that bind enemies like RDM’s Tether and BLM’s Freeze are so poor/useless in party or endgame content that a lot of people don’t even use them.

To create “anything meaningful in future additions” doesn’t necessarily mean “add more skills”. Jobs can be made “more meaningful” or “more interesting” without having to add 5 new abilities every expansion.

I agree completely that traits, new mechanics, new systems, etc., can add interest and/or meaning just as well as new abilities, but why would you choose to take skills that have been left disused because their bloat was considered acceptable out back and shoot them rather than fixing those skills, and ensuring that whatever you have on your bar has some definite usefulness for what you're going to be doing -- not by cutting it down to the fewest options possible, however many buttons may then be spent on them, but by ensuring that each has impact -- over fixing the bloat that is left not only situational, but rotationally locked out? (Not to say you can't do both, of course.)

I have never said that condensing buttons down to their actual number of choices increases complexity. I said it doesn't waste buttons, and therefore one has more buttons with which to interact with actual complexity. Will button count be the sole determiner of interactions possible? Not remotely -- as bloat and painfully barebone undermechanics have already shown. But, it does at least allow the situation to be improved upon, rather than axing yet more skills with unintendedly large side effects (such as the entire loss of modular control over Monk forms when Fracture and Touch of Death were removed) when push comes to shove and button-space is still considered primarily to be one-to-one with ability count, rather than accessible ability count (current choices and trackers only).

[Reynhart]

The same way that making the "PVP," system for Monk would be an absolute mess, since Perfect Balance is not simply, "mash the final button in your combo chain."

So MNK is excluded?

Adressed at least 10 pages ago...

Why should we need more than one button for offensive oGCDs then?

Because that would reduce the number of skills, since oGCD are not tied to each other. OR, you find a system so that you can put several oGCD in the same slot while still keeping all viable options you have to use them in any order at any time. Go on, make your suggestion.

I find it more engaging and less boring/mind-numbing to have multiple buttons to press;

Even if it means reducing the room for potential new abilities that would actually deeped the gameplay of your job ?

[Oscura]

Adressed at least 10 pages ago...

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk. You can't select which button to press within the combo unless you have separate buttons for it, like we do now. Good luck convincing SE to even touch Perfect Balance, they haven't in 4 years.

Because that would reduce the number of skills, since oGCD are not tied to each other. OR, you find a system so that you can put several oGCD in the same slot while still keeping all viable options you have to use them in any order at any time. Go on, make your suggestion.

That is ultimately irrelevant. Arguing about reducing skills is a half-measure. Skills are just buttons to press the same way each step in a combo is. People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat. As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either. Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult. They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses. Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

[Neophyte]

Even if it means reducing the room for potential new abilities that would actually deeped the gameplay of your job ?

This.

Why do people think Ruin4 replaces Ruin2 when it procs? To safe buttons without affecting game play too much (if at all).
I mean, what is R2->R4 when you look at it closely?

A boosted version of a GCD you got by a proc replaces a less favorable GCD, you don't want to use while you have that proc. This is essentially the same as a condensed combo.
A combo is just a GCD with a 100% 10s proc boosting another GCD, making the former GCD less favorable, i.e. you don't want to use while you have that combo proc running

Would people had been more happy with Ruin4 as a seperate ability to put on the hotbar with (50 pot; 200 pot when you get the proc) instead of the current design, because it would be more engaging to have to press a different button for R4 instead of your R2 button?

Why are people then praising this design specifically?

And what if placing R4 on a different button would have meant that we don't get Aetherpact to stay the same in regards to number of slots needed?


Condensed GCDs are already in place. Ruin2->Ruin4 for example.
Higanbana/Mangetsu/Midare Setsugekka is another one: They could have also added those three GCDs as abilities you have to put on the hotbar, but ofc with the same requirements in place, i.e.
Higanbana (only useable with exactly 1 Sen)
Mangetsu (only useable with exactly 2 Sen)
Midare Setsugekka (only useable with exactly 3 Sen)

Wow, that would be totally great, right? So engaging.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

This.

Why do people think Ruin4 replaces Ruin2 when it procs? To safe buttons without affecting game play too much (if at all).
I mean, what is R2->R4 when you look at it closely?

A boosted version of a GCD you got by a proc replaces a less favorable GCD, you don't want to use while you have that proc. This is essentially the same as a condensed combo.
A combo is just a GCD with a 100% 10s proc boosting another GCD, making the former GCD less favorable, i.e. you don't want to use while you have that combo proc running

Would people had been more happy with Ruin4 as a seperate ability to put on the hotbar with (50 pot; 200 pot when you get the proc) instead of the current design, because it would be more engaging to have to press a different button for R4 instead of your R2 button?

Why are people then praising this design specifically?

And what if placing R4 on a different button would have meant that we don't get Aetherpact to stay the same in regards to number of slots needed?


Condensed GCDs are already in place. Ruin2->Ruin4 for example.
Higanbana/Mangetsu/Midare Setsugekka is another one: They could have also added those three GCDs as abilities you have to put on the hotbar, but ofc with the same requirements in place, i.e.
Higanbana (only useable with exactly 1 Sen)
Mangetsu (only useable with exactly 2 Sen)
Midare Setsugekka (only useable with exactly 3 Sen)

Wow, that would be totally great, right? So engaging.

Ninja ninjutsu as well....
You've got, 7 different skills condensed into 4 buttons...

If they didn't have multiple combinations doing the same ninjutsu they could have....
Hmm...

3 single step ninjutsu
6 two step ninjutsu without doubles, 9 with being able to press the same mundra twice
6 three step ninjutsu without doubles, 27 if you could press the same mundra up to 3 times

But, we're getting into a lot of skills to have to remember combinations for...
And that's not even considering if we could do more than 3 mundra in a row.

[Nyxn607]

I am not sure why people don't want to take a 4 slot combo and make it a 1 slot combo. The skill's won't change ... the complexity won't get easier, but rather has the chance to increase if they add new skills. Maybe people just don't understand what is meant by op *shrugs*