When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

[LunaTsukihime]

The thread wants just auto buttons and says its not going to alter much. Many people saying its just the buttons "not the skills". Just the buttons right? Except it doesn't fit for Monk for "just the buttons". They would have to rebalance monk to fit into 3 auto buttons. Which is the point, they just want the buttons, but here we are changing things just so we can fit things into the buttons. You probably can't even do the current MNK opener with your changes.

Who in the seven hells limited anything to 3 auto buttons?

[Reynhart]

You probably can't even do the current MNK opener with your changes.

What is currently the "best" opener for MNK ? I'll see how it would work with my suggestions.

[Vaer]

Who in the seven hells limited anything to 3 auto buttons?

I'm calling them auto buttons because they auto change for you. This is specifically for the combos since this is what we are talking about, not that the entire job is just 3 buttons.

I've already answered that (and add something after Vaer's concern) so that MNK would lose nothing.

• 3 slots.
• All slots change according to your form
• Perfect Balance stop Form changing from WS but make Form Shift instant and not trigger GCD.

What is currently the "best" opener for MNK ? I'll see how it would work with my suggestions.

Not a monk main but the one I usually seen thrown around has the following things inside the PB window and the PB window starts right after the Demolish you use on pull. ogcds omitted since combo buttons wouldn't really stop you from using ogcds.

[PB] Snap Snap Dragon Kick Twin Snakes True Strike [/PB] Bootshine

The green is ok with your suggestions since they are tier 3 abilities, the rest of them wouldn't be usable. The oGCDs are also taken up by Diversion, Pot, Riddle of Fire and Internal Release. Sticking Form Shift in there a bunch of times (about 4 times) would be tough.

Going by this.

[Miste]

Who in the seven hells limited anything to 3 auto buttons?

Well you said you wanted to reduce skill bloat right? That was one of your goals in combining combos into one button.

MNK has 8 different combinations with 6 different weapon skills.

6 Weapon Skills:
Bootshine
Dragon Kick
True Strike
Twin Snakes
Snap Punch
Demolish

8 Combinations:
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Demolish
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > True Strike > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Boot Shine > True Strike > Snap Punch

To turn all of those possibilities into one button each you would need 8 buttons which ends up more than the 6 standalone buttons we have right now.

The only solution to this problem would be to alter how MNK currently plays (IE: Reynhart's suggestions) and that alteration is for the sole reason to make this system work and not to improve MNK or make it more fun IE: What an expansion would usually try to do. It is forcing change around an outside influence instead of changing the job simply to make it better, more fun, or more engaging. That's my opinion anyway.

[kikix12]

Monks are an odd-ball, seeing as they changed warriors stance-based skills to shift depending on stance, but they didn't for Monk. If you ask me, Monks should have theirs changed already, seeing as they're not utilizing combos but stances.

Have three buttons which correspond to the three skills that are available only in current stance. Then when you use one, the stance changes, and so do the skills, but at all points, you can use any of the three skills that correspond to the stance in question.

This does change two things. Perfect balance (but one skill is not enough to avoid a change like this, for the sake of having job gauges more skills were ditched/changed than just one) and using Bootshine in a different stance than Opo-Opo. Dunno whether it is used in Raptor or Coeurl though (or whether it can, really), so no idea whether it's actually relevant.

However, Perfect Balance is a skill that I think should have been changed anyway. I'm anything but a fan of long-cooldown skills. If something have a cooldown higher than 60sec, I think it should be changed, unless it's got a long duration as well. And three minutes for 10sec duration, and with such a skill that have no game-breaking abilities (unlike the sort of Hallowed Grounds or Benediction which at least can make a difference between a wipe and a safe fight without a death), is messed up.

EDIT: Yes, I didn't read earlier posts before posting this. But yes, I agree with the above being the way monks work, and without even considering it part of this thread as it's got nothing to do with combos, per see.

[LunaTsukihime]

Well you said you wanted to reduce skill bloat right? That was one of your goals in combining combos into one button.

MNK has 8 different combinations with 6 different weapon skills.

6 Weapon Skills:
Bootshine
Dragon Kick
True Strike
Twin Snakes
Snap Punch
Demolish

8 Combinations:
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Demolish
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > True Strike > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Boot Shine > True Strike > Snap Punch

To turn all of those possibilities into one button each you would need 8 buttons which ends up more than the 6 standalone buttons we have right now.

The only solution to this problem would be to alter how MNK currently plays (IE: Reynhart\\'s suggestions) and that alteration is for the sole reason to make this system work and not to improve MNK or make it more fun IE: What an expansion would usually try to do. It is forcing change around an outside influence instead of changing the job simply to make it better, more fun, or more engaging. That\\'s my opinion anyway.

Yes I get it, you want every combination of those 6 skills but in reality not all of those 8 are needed.

Also, they for example removed the poison buffs from ninjas, removing the choice between stun or silence, that still didn\\'t mean ninjas lost those, what I\\'m getting at, classes will get changes regardless, we can argue and get angry at each other but in the end we are theorizing here how to improve the game we love for everyone.

I understand that monk will need some attention, but that would only mean SE cares about our QoL.

[Reynhart]

[PB] Snap Snap Dragon Kick Twin Snakes True Strike [/PB] Bootshine

Ok, so, we'll state again how Perfect Balance would work and synergize with Form Shift.

• Puts you in Coerul Form
• No automatic form change after a WS
• No delay and no GCD to Form Shift. Basically, you'd cast Form Shift as quickly as Mudras.

So, the opener would be : [PB] Snap Snap Form Shift Dragon Kick Form Shift Twin Snakes True Strike Form Shift Form Shift [/PB] Bootshine

Sure, you'd have to do more actions, but you could still do it. It could get more complicated if you have some CD to pop between weapon skills.

Yes I get it, you want every combination of those 6 skills but in reality not all of those 8 are needed.

This would be "reducing options" and, even if some options are not optimal, it would make MNK more shallow to play.

[Mimilu]

8 Combinations:
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Demolish
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > True Strike > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Boot Shine > True Strike > Snap Punch

The combos I put in bold are the only combos you should be doing in current, PvE end game content (causal or hardcore), the rest should never be done. :B

What I think they could do for MNK is have one button be Bootshine + True Strike, one for Dragon Kick + Twin Snakes, and then two separate buttons for Demolish and Snap Punch.

[Vaer]

Ok, so, we'll state again how Perfect Balance would work and synergize with Form Shift.

• Puts you in Coerul Form
• No automatic form change after a WS
• No delay and no GCD to Form Shift. Basically, you'd cast Form Shift as quickly as Mudras.

So, the opener would be : [PB] Snap Snap Form Shift Dragon Kick Form Shift Twin Snakes True Strike Form Shift Form Shift [/PB] Bootshine

Sure, you'd have to do more actions, but you could still do it. It could get more complicated if you have some CD to pop between weapon skills.

The oGCDs are also taken up by Diversion, Pot, Riddle of Fire and Internal Release. Sticking Form Shift in there a bunch of times would be tough. You would clip the GCD a bunch of times trying to jam all that in there and probably lose out on 1 or 2 of them.

[BroodingFicus]

I'm always torn with this. On paper it sounds like a good idea to an extent, at least when you're talking about expansions. Condensing buttons down would mean room for new things to be added without bloat but I've still always been pretty strongly against it. WoW did a lot of pruning and combining of buttons and I only managed to try Legion for about a month before I canceled my subscription. The issue I ran into is that classes felt the same. No matter what I played, there were only about four or five buttons that mattered and the order of those buttons was usually just something like 1-1-1, maybe a proc so hit 2, 1-1-1, enemy is low hp, hit 3. Yes my hotbar was less crowded but I liken it to playing music. Hitting one note over and over isn't objectively harder pr easier than hitting three in a sequence but its the sound. I feel better about the sound/feel I get from doing a combo correctly when it isn't just one note/button. It also means that the classes feel different. My Red Mage feels like a different song from my Ninja or my Machinist and my White Mage feels different from my Summoner or Monk.

My fear with the idea of slamming combo's onto one button is that in the end most classes with heavy amounts of combo's would all start to look something like 1-1-1 2-2-2 3-3-3. The amount of buttons to me right now feels nice and yes they will need to be cautious moving forward. Future expansions may need to look at giving new versions of old abilities the way classes like WHM slowly upgrade their Stone and Aero to higher versions as they level up. That way early dungeons still have plenty of moves available but higher levels don't feel bloated. It's something they need to watch to be certain but the last thing I'd want them to do is to use the PvP as a model. It makes sense there because you're dealing with living, breathing people who move erratically vs mobs that mostly stand still and let you beat on them. Yes there are mechanics but they can be predicted and learned along with a rotation and positional. It's just a very slipper slope to take and I'd rather them look at all other alternatives before condensing in that fashion. They could make it optional I suppose but then you are going to run into the argument that people who use the condensed version have it easier than people who don't and you couldn't just keep adding more moves because you're going to have to balance the button bloat based on the people using the un-condensed version. That isn't something I see square doing anytime soon just because it wouldn't actually solve any hot bar concerns and would create an argument among the player base.