DPS is the job of DPS.

[Sorriow]

I don't get the mentality of these (for the lack of better word) bad FFXIV players.

If you are joining a random party, isn't it desired to perform well, so that the dungeon run goes smooth, fast and easy for most of the group? To leave a good impression? To actually make it fun for everyone involved in the group? Why would you literally disrespect people in a multiplayer settings because you "want to play the game your way" instead pulling the best out of yourself?

Is it because in your mindset, you think you are good players and don't need a change of playstile or (dare I say) advice from a random person?

I honestly want to know that without some funny guy meme'ing me a 1 liner because he thinks he is funny.

EDIT: for the sake of clarification: I draw a clear line between a new or low skill ceiling player that is trying to improve (even tho he really should know the basics at max level), and a straight out baddy who refuses to change.

[Reynhart]

so that the dungeon run goes smooth, fast and easy for most of the group?

Problem is, "smooth", "fast" and "easy" can contradict each other depending on level, gear, skill or party composition.
If you can't have all three, which one is the most important ?

[winsock]

Majority Rule

Can we just agree that majority rule is not a reasonable standard to expect people to follow?

For example:
5 people in a MS think that 1-3 people should run the instance while the rest just afk.
^ it is completely reasonable for the minority to not comply with this right?

A more realistic example:
Party: Healer is new, please go easy with the pulls.
^ if a good tank pulls one group at a time, they dont need a healer, but if the tank makes a pull that requires a healer and something goes wrong, it's the tank's fault for not pulling small enough. This is very unfair to the tank. I queue with the understanding that there will be a healer and the role of healer requires them to take some responsibility for the party's survival. If the party wants to throw all of that responsibility on the tank, it is reasonable for the tank to not want to comply with the majority. (in this situation, i ask the healer make a commitment to healing like: "I understand you are new. Can i count on you for a minimum of cure II spam? I can work with that", i.e. something that gives them some responsibility and enables them to be accountable)

[Sorriow]

Of all of them, "easy" isn't.

Given that most dungeons are easy by default and are pretty heavily gimped down by the players gear level / max itemsynch, the element of challenge outside of savage content is reasonably low. As I mentioned in the post you're quoting but sadly/conveniently cropped out, people are more often than not encouraged to improve and the attitude ranges widly between grateful acceptance for advice and rudeful spite.

I have never, in my >15 years of mmo experience, witnessed a moment where people, outside of the hardest endgame content, get shamed for asking for advice and actually use it to turn them into a better player.

The real problem lies with people who straight out refuse to optimize. Check my other post, there are multiple reason why that is an issue.

Bottom line: If you don't want/try to push the best out of you, you have it coming to get shamed/insulted/kicked out of a party in a multiplayer setting.

[Shurrikhan]

Can we just agree that majority rule is not a reasonable standard to expect people to follow?

You example here, though, depends on a behavior beneath a minimum of what any reasonable person would require to consider the majority therein not cheating and/or griefing, each reportable offenses. Moreover it relies on double-standards, whereby that majority rule is not legislating for itself, but rather creating two bodies, and then legislating over that second body in which it has no actual participation.

Now, admittedly, reporting aside, they are technically free to do that; we can't systematically defend against such except by punishment after the fact. But in any reasonable situation not already reportable, does "majority rule" as a basic description fall apart?

Majority rule will always suffer from misinterpretation, unfair judgment, and deposited responsibility, as per your second example — which you'd offered a perfect personal counter for — and I, myself, will likely find situations where I'm likely to stretch how I interpret the opinions of the remaining group members, such as when the tank in a "let's go slow" party who knows he can survive on Regen alone, but as our only true arbitrator is Vote Kick, I don't see how majority rule isn't an apt basic description.

Though, admittedly "striking a balance between or as to circumvent effective conflicts" may be a better definition, albeit a mouthful.

[Reynhart]

Of all of them, "easy" isn't.

Then chose between "fast" and "smooth"

The real problem lies with people who straight out refuse to optimize.

The problem also lies with people who don't have the patience to teach other. If your new healer/tank tries to manage a mass pull and the group wipes once or twice, most people will just bail out.

Now, admittedly, reporting aside, they are technically free to do that; we can't systematically defend against such except by punishment after the fact. But in any reasonable situation not already reportable, does "majority rule" as a basic description fall apart?

The problem with the majority is that not all roles bear the same responsibility, so they don't express their opinion based on the same premise.

[Sorriow]

Moving the goalpost and strawmanning in one reply. Should I only post in single words so that you can't crop out the info you dislike?
Which part of "asking for advice" and "improve" did you not understand?

If you >new guy< overestimates himself and decides to be witty about it, can you blame people to leave? Given that the dungeon structure makes it more than difficult to wipe on big pulls since packs are gated behind others anyway.

For the sake of clarity: Can you give me a concrete example of your party bailing after mentioned mass pull?

[HyoMinPark]

snip

I have been in quite a few instances with undergeared tanks and healers. In the ones where they have outright apologized for their poor gear a la something like “I just returned to the game after a couple months absence”, “I just started playing a few days ago and didn’t know I could get better gear from vendors/the MB”, or “I know my gear is really poor but I’m going to try my best; if it’s not enough/too slow then feel free to replace me if you guys want a cleaner/faster run”, groups have been extremely willing to help out said person, adjusting to accommodate them. However, when a person doesn’t speak up about their poor gear, tries to do far too much for them to handle multiple times (i.e., poorly geared tank tries for larger pulls, dies, respawns, and just does the same thing again—bonus points if they acknowledge their gear is crap), people are far less willing to accommodate, and far more likely to resort to “majority rules” in the form of vote dismissal. Communication is key.

Certainly people should not expect other people to cater to them—and I know that there are players out there that do not expect that, but there are an equal amount out there that do.

Personally speaking, I will not enter a duty unless I have appropriate gear for it, and that probably comes from my experience as a healer having to heal overly enthusiastic undergeared tanks on more occasions than I would like to count. A good example is I am leveling up NIN right now, which was still in the 230 gear from Weeping City (tells you how often I played that job after it hit 60 lol). I farmed up some poetics to buy the job 260 Shire gear, and even augmented it before opting to join roulettes where I may get a duty I am not geared to handle. Same thing when I leveled DRK—she was in full 270, and I didn’t get much gear from her after Shisui, so I stuck to just doing Alliance Roulette so as to not burden a healer in Bardam’s Mettle or Doma Castle with poor gear. However, not everyone has that kind of foresight nor consideration. Only in a perfect world would such happen, and this world is anything but that. I try not to expect people to have the same kind of behavior or consideration as myself, though it would be nice.

[Miste]

The problem also lies with people who don't have the patience to teach other. If your new healer/tank tries to manage a mass pull and the group wipes once or twice, most people will just bail out.

It is awesome when people offer to teach you in a game like this, but you shouldn't expect it from everyone. No one has the obligation to set aside time from their game time/life in order to teach a complete stranger how to play their role/job in an online game. You shouldn't have that kind of expectation.

I mean I do help people when I can, but I also don't always want to be spending my time teaching people either. I pay my sub to play the game and have fun too and teaching others isn't always part of my agenda.

People need to realize you cannot always rely on other in-game players during an instance to teach you. There are plenty of online resources you could use to further your own learning about a role or job or you could even use /shout in a populated map or use PF to see if someone is available who has time to set aside to help you out. During a run is the worst time to expect everyone else to teach you a lot of basics about your job. It's great when a party is okay to do so, but you cannot always expect it.

Sort of like these players that go into EX Primals in DF then ask for all the mechanics to be explained to them.....I don't understand these types of players. If you were just going to make someone else type out all the mechanics when we enter the duty why didn't you just look up a guide online first? It's the same result and you can learn at your own pace and get way clearer explanations then having some poor other player get sore fingers typing out all that information for you during the run and making everyone wait.

[Reynhart]

Moving the goalpost and strawmanning in one reply.

Funny, coming from someone who, when asked "which one of three is the most important", can only reply "this one is the least".

Should I only post in single words so that you can't crop out the info you dislike?

I didn't know there was a rule that I have to reply to every single sentence in one post.

Which part of "asking for advice" and "improve" did you not understand?

Which part of "people not having the patience to teach other did you not understand" ?

If you >new guy< overestimates himself and decides to be witty about it, can you blame people to leave?

So, we went from "new players need to improve" to "the new guy is the one biting more than he can chew" so others are victims. Kudos for consistency.

For the sake of clarity: Can you give me a concrete example of your party bailing after mentioned mass pull?

What ? You're trying to tell me that you've never met people who immediately leave when someone is a first timer and acknowledged that they don't know one particular fight ? What a wonderful MMO world you're lving into.

People need to realize you cannot always rely on other in-game players during an instance to teach you.

Speedrunning is like learning how to ride a bicycle, the first times, you will fail. If people kick or leave you when it happens, chances are you won't improve for quite some time. And no videos will ever be enough to teach you, or else everybody would clear all content.

If I meet someone new and willing to learn, I will adjust my pace to him, even if some hurry veterans ask me to speedrun because it's the zillionth time they do this content.