"Casual" content thoughts

[HyoMinPark]

While no one here expects a player who has disabilities to perform in ways in which they physically or mentally cannot (this is mentioned in just about every DPS-debate thread when someone brings up a disability), I don't think that counts for the majority of idle players you see in dungeons. That being said, unless a person says "I have such-and-such disability; and I physically cannot do this and/or that", the group has no way of knowing. So unless people are wanting us to assume that everyone who doesn't DPS as a healer or doesn't AOE as a DPS has a disability, what are we supposed to assume?

"Casual" content doesn't mean people can be inherently lazy, disabilities aside. If a person has the ability to carry their weight, they should do that, rather than expect everyone else to pick up the slack for them. Anecdotal, but I've noticed when wipes occur, a lot of the people who say something negative about it are the same people who aren't pulling their weight, be it a tank not properly holding aggro, a healer staring off into space as the tank goes down (actually saw that just yesterday in Kugane Castle--3 wipes on the pull before Yojimbo and the healer didn't try to salvage any of them, rather instead blaming the tank who, I guess, is expected to heal themselves now, and then they started blaming the DPS for not killing the bomb add, which died almost immediately and wasn't what caused the wipe; the healer just wasn't healing the tank, and they weren't DPSing), or DPS single-targeting a pack of 10 mobs.

The main argument is, and has always been, that everyone should equally contribute to any and all content. Not one person doing the minimum and expecting the rest to compensate for them.

Hardcore players have this strange habit of wanting challenge, yet refusing to actually interact with the challenging content. They simultaneously want a faceroll, while complaining that everything is too easy.

That is a very big generalization you're making there. And, honestly, I find it incredibly incorrect. Threads here alone suggest the opposite: content is too faceroll, and people still cry for nerfs (honestly, look at the threads demanding the second boss in Rabanastre be nerfed when he's incredibly easy if one just pays attention), or devs release something mildly challenging > "omg too hard pls nerf" (ShinEx). And that comes largely from the more softcore/midcore side.

Look at all the people that asked for Ultimate; none of the hardcore players have complained about Ultimate's difficulty. All the Ultimate complaints have ultimately come from the more casual side, saying it's "a waste of resources".

[RiyahArp]

"Casual" content doesn't mean people can be inherently lazy, disabilities aside. If a person has the ability to carry their weight, they should do that, rather than expect everyone else to pick up the slack for them.

This isn't really the issue in threads like this. The worry is that the hardcore players want all content to be savageified, in order to make players better. What I mean by this is that they want casual content to become harder or more like savage content, in order to push all players to get better and possibly make raiding or ex trials easier. Like the average bad player isn't lazy! They are doing what they can, but they aren't as good as placement, positioning, optimization, and what have you as another player.

Like you can suffer serious dps loss just by being late at refreshing a debuff or using a cooldown. It's not a matter of afking, a lot of problems with play more or less involve not being optimal with many little things.

[HyoMinPark]

This isn't really the issue in threads like this. The worry is that the hardcore players want all content to be savageified, in order to make players better.

I’ve never seen a hardcore player say that casual content needs to be harder/on Savage-level to prompt people to not be lazy/make people better players. The closest I usually see are people saying that, if casual content were harder in terms of, for example, healing requirements or tanking requirements, then there would be a reason for the “heal only” healers to focus solely on healing without DPSing (since there would be more required healing uptime), or that there would be a reason for tanks to actively use tank stances on bosses without dropping it immediately after establishing hate (since there would be actual use in the mitigation tank stance gives—as it stands now, even tankbusters in current Savage content can be completely ignored and/or cheesed via Holmgang/Hallowed Ground/Living Dead, or just require a single cooldown to survive outside of tank stance). The content isn’t hard enough to demand 80% healing uptime or 80% tank stance uptime, so then why are the players that are so insistent on healing only or always remaining in stance doing so when the content does not actively require it? Their arguments fall apart immediately.

Another thing I’ve seen is people asking for better difficulty scaling in this game. But, again, that is not asking for dungeons to suddenly be tuned to Savage-tier levels of difficulty. When some of the Leveling dungeons are more challenging than “Expert” dungeons, don’t you think there’s some kind of design flaw there? Players go from trying leveling dungeons like The Vault, Bardam’s Mettle, and Doma Castle where things can actually hurt if you aren’t proactive about them; to “expert” dungeons like Great Gubal HM, Sohm Al HM, Kugane Castle, and Skalla, where you barely have to do anything healing-wise outside of putting a regen on the tank, and maybe a Cure II/Benefic II/Lustrate occasionally when they dip low (providing that the tank is actively mitigating incoming damage); or when you pull a pack of 3 mobs, you don’t even need to be in tank stance for mitigation or aggro.

You have Rabanastre, which is a step up from Heavensward’s Void Ark, but a step below Weeping City and Dun Scaith, where people complain about having to pay attention to the mechanics during Mateus and Hashmal (sp?) that are not even that difficult to handle. There’s still players posting in the “nerf Hashmal” thread when his fight is not that hard. But people are so used to things being so easy, the minute something requires just a tiny bit more effort, it’s construed as suddenly being “too hard” and “needs to be nerfed”. I’m sorry, I find and take issues with that.

You have the Ex primals, where Lakshmi Ex and Susano Ex were made harder only by the other players in your party not properly executing simple mechanics, healing, mitigating, or even outputting enough rDPS, and that’s not how a fight should be. A fight should be harder because of the fight design, not because the players you got in your party have no earthly idea how to properly play.

Then you go into V1S/V2S, which are really easy and almost roll over, to V3S/V4S that are mechanic heavy and healing heavy during some phases of V4S (Almagest and Neverwhere punchy-punchy), and nothing has prepared the more casually-oriented players for such content. Because the difficulty scaling in this game is so flawed.

What I mean by this is that they want casual content to become harder or more like savage content, in order to push all players to get better and possibly make raiding or ex trials easier.

Again, I have never seen raiders say that dungeons should be on Savage-difficulty levels. I have seen them say that Ex primals and Savage content should be closer to the levels they used to be (Coil, Gordias/Midas, Thordan Ex/Sephirot Ex), but they have never referred to dungeons needing to be Savage-tier. At most, they have asked for them to have better difficulty scaling, or not be mindnumbingly boring. But asking for something like “please give me dungeons that would actually require me having to heal more” or “give me dungeons where tank stance is actually useful outside of a mega-pull” is not the same as saying “please make all dungeons as difficult as Savage”.

Like the average bad player isn't lazy! They are doing what they can, but they aren't as good as placement, positioning, optimization, and what have you as another player.

So then they should strive to get better. Rather than saying, “Well, I’m just the Average Joe; there’s no need for me to try and improve my performance”. I feel like that’s an extremely bad mindset to have. I don’t agree with making excuses for bad play/performance.

Outside of physical or mental disabilities that actually prevent a player from performing the same as a person who does not have said disabilities, there is zero reason for a player to not strive to improve if they “aren’t as good”. And even people with disabilities prefer to try harder to be more like “normal people”; a lot of people with disabilities find it extremely condescending for people to assume that, just because they’re disabled, that means that they cannot perform on the same level as a person who is not disabled. A lot do not use their disability as an excuse to not be better, but rather as a challenge to overcome. And the challenge is all the more worthwhile when they do overcome it.

Like you can suffer serious dps loss just by being late at refreshing a debuff or using a cooldown. It's not a matter of afking, a lot of problems with play more or less involve not being optimal with many little things.

You can certainly have DPS losses by not playing optimally—be it missing a buff window, letting DoTs fall off, failing to snapshot them before multiple raid buffs fall off, etc. But not as much so as you would when you aren’t contributing at all. There isn’t really a fair comparison there—it seems very “apples to oranges” to compare “Player A that missed a buff window/missed a debuff/let their DoT(s) drop a couple times” to “Player B who stood around doing nothing 80% of the fight”.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This isn't really the issue in threads like this. The worry is that the hardcore players want all content to be savageified, in order to make players better. What I mean by this is that they want casual content to become harder or more like savage content, in order to push all players to get better and possibly make raiding or ex trials easier. Like the average bad player isn't lazy! They are doing what they can, but they aren't as good as placement, positioning, optimization, and what have you as another player.

Like you can suffer serious dps loss just by being late at refreshing a debuff or using a cooldown. It's not a matter of afking, a lot of problems with play more or less involve not being optimal with many little things.

I won't even mince words. This is straight up nonsense. Hardcore players aren't demanding everything become Savage. In fact, many enjoy a relaxed pace. Our complaint is most content below Savage isn't easy, it's braindead. I just queued into Solm Al Hard last night and literally did not press a single heal; not even regen. The mobs simply don't scratch a tank pulling one pack at a time. One could argue this is just old content but the same applies to current Expert dungeons. I have pulled trash on Samurai and been absolutely fine. It speaks volumes when a RDM casting the occasional Vercure is more valuable than a WHM that only heals. Shinryu normal is an excellent example of a decent fight relative to its ilvl, though I'd like to see a little harder.

And why aren't they as good? What stops someone from looking up a guide or asking how to better prefer on their chosen job? It's posts like this that spread accusations of laziness. Do you think I started off with 80-90% in Savage? No. I learned how to better play as time went on. I wouldn't even necessarily expect that level of commitment in DF, but I don't think it's asking much we have less faceroll easy dungeons or normal mode raids. They should be made easy by higher gear and better performance, not something I queue into on the day of release without knowing a thing and pull the run anyway.

[NocturniaUzuki]

That is a very big generalization you're making there. And, honestly, I find it incredibly incorrect. Threads here alone suggest the opposite: content is too faceroll, and people still cry for nerfs (honestly, look at the threads demanding the second boss in Rabanastre be nerfed when he's incredibly easy if one just pays attention), or devs release something mildly challenging > "omg too hard pls nerf" (ShinEx). And that comes largely from the more softcore/midcore side.

Look at all the people that asked for Ultimate; none of the hardcore players have complained about Ultimate's difficulty. All the Ultimate complaints have ultimately come from the more casual side, saying it's "a waste of resources".

I'm just speaking from what I've experienced, much the same way you are. Also, by claiming the second boss of Rabanastre is easy, you're kind of making the OP's case. You think it's easy? Okay, great. Not everyone does, though. And yet the response to that is just "Those people are just whining, it really is easy." So they say it's hard for them, but you don't think it's hard, so therefore it should be easy for them too. That's the mindset problem the OP pointed out.