"Casual" content thoughts

[HyoMinPark]

Did you do it with a premade? Because that's easier too. I used to pug it, and no, it wasn't particularly easy for people used to the mechanics of the game. Hyomin talks the old line about "seeing mechanic before," but at the time shiva's diamond dust was a joke unless you did EX, and people had stopped doing coil long ago, even for WT.

I pugged it with one friend and 6 randoms; I’ve never done Royal Menagerie normal as in a pre-made group. Only one person in the fight had actually cleared; they were a healer. I did it again with another friend not too long after that, and one of the tanks (a DRK) had not done their level 70 job quest, so they didn’t have Blackest Night, and were wearing level 68 and below gear. We still cleared.

The mechanics in Royal Menagerie were equally “a joke”. They were not that difficult to execute; they only required the person to be paying attention. If people were having issues, others that knew would explain if they were given the opportunity to.

[Sylvina]

understand that a lot of these people can't.

I don't agree that people CANT get good unless they literally have a handicap which prevents them from doing so (like you did mention). However if someone doesn't WANT to get good, and they are good ENOUGH for the content they are already running, that is perfectly ok. it's only bad for someone to not git gud when their not gitting gud is hurting others.

and of course if you have a handicap, it's not your fault.

The mechanics in Royal Menagerie were equally “a joke”. They were not that difficult to execute; they only required the person to be paying attention. If people were having issues, others that knew would explain if they were given the opportunity to.

All individual mechanics are a joke when someone pays attention to them. it's when multiple mechanics happen at the same time that it becomes difficult for a human being to focus on their rotation, the boss, and the mechanics at once, depending how much is going on.

[NocturniaUzuki]

Diverging from the previous argument...

HyoMin, have you ever tried to imagine what it's like for genuine newcomers to MMOs? Or to gaming, for that matter. Most MMO players (heck, even myself) have a distorted view of what people consider "easy" and "hard". For example, I once tried to get my Mom, a 60-year-old with no gaming experience, to play Portal. It was an eye-opening experience. Forget about not grasping the game mechanics. She couldn't even move the character. The entire concept of moving with WASD + mouse was beyond her. You talk about how "easy" these fights are, and how everyone can learn. Well yes, everyone can learn, but it's not that simple. To someone with little experience in the genre, keeping track of so many things at once is daunting. Just take a moment to count how many things you need to keep track of in Rabanastre.

Gaming takes a long time to learn. And even then, people play usually play for fun and aren't interested in tiring, focused learning.

[NolLacnala]

Did you not browse the forums either here or on reddit about royal menagerie? Do you ever read the FFXIV reddit? They say stuff like this all the time.

Plebbit says a lot of things because 99% of them are armchair raiders.

Friendly reminder that Gordias sucked because Yoshi made the mistake of listening to Reddit.

[Sylvina]

Plebbit says a lot of things because 99% of them are armchair raiders.

Friendly reminder that Gordias sucked because Yoshi made the mistake of listening to Reddit.

Be careful some people will even argue gordias was the best. I met one of these moon touched individuals once.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

HyoMin, have you ever tried to imagine what it's like for genuine newcomers to MMOs?

Although not Hyomin, I have to comment since FFXIV is my first MMO. So...

For example, I once tried to get my Mom, a 60-year-old with no gaming experience, to play Portal. It was an eye-opening experience. Forget about not grasping the game mechanics. She couldn't even move the character. The entire concept of moving with WASD + mouse was beyond her. You talk about how "easy" these fights are, and how everyone can learn. Well yes, everyone can learn, but it's not that simple. To someone with little experience in the genre, keeping track of so many things at once is daunting. Just take a moment to count how many things you need to keep track of in Rabanastre.

My mother was once completely clueless with computers. You know how she figured it out? Practice. You act like there exists some silly dichotomy where everything has to be easy lest the casuals fall apart. That's what leveling dungeons, hunts, open world mobs are for and floors 1-50 are for. Expert Roulette is meant for max level players; people who have played upwards of 30+ hours. Making content at max level actually require some effort is not the same as making Brayflux normal akin to Weeping City.

[HyoMinPark]

Diverging from the previous argument...

HyoMin, have you ever tried to imagine what it's like for genuine newcomers to MMOs? Or to gaming, for that matter. Most MMO players (heck, even myself) have a distorted view of what people consider "easy" and "hard". For example, I once tried to get my Mom, a 60-year-old with no gaming experience, to play Portal. It was an eye-opening experience. Forget about not grasping the game mechanics. She couldn't even move the character. The entire concept of moving with WASD + mouse was beyond her. You talk about how "easy" these fights are, and how everyone can learn. Well yes, everyone can learn, but it's not that simple. To someone with little experience in the genre, keeping track of so many things at once is daunting. Just take a moment to count how many things you need to keep track of in Rabanastre.

Gaming takes a long time to learn. And even then, people play usually play for fun and aren't interested in tiring, focused learning.

Since we’re apparently asking about my MMO experience: FFXIV is my second MMO; my first was a F2P Korean MMO that was completely different from this game. I am not a heavy gamer—at most I have played maybe 10 different gaming titles (primarily Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy titles; I suppose you can also throw in the old Pokémon RPG games in there as well). So yes, I do remember what it was like starting out. I also make that known each time I help a sprout, and each time I argue against players being outright toxic to new and learning individuals.

Regardless of my own personal experiences, and regardless of the fact that I can and do empathize with players, I still do not find it acceptable behavior, nor do I understand the behavior, for some to not try to do the best that they can do. We cannot all sit here and assume that the idle healer or the slow-pulling tank or the not-AOEing DPS are individuals with disabilities that are unable to “keep up” because of that (quite frankly, I detest assuming such a thing of people, because it comes off to me as incredibly insulting).

Yes, gaming takes a long time to learn. Yes, it can be particularly challenging to some, who may not be hardcore gamers of countless, various titles. So that is why you practice and practice and keep trying. Especially if you desire to get better. Just like you would at anything else.

With all due respect, I find that you just keep making excuses for people, and not really much else.
I also do not see how “paying attention to mechanics” is a “tiring, focused learning.”

[Moomba33]

I think it's true that what's easy for one person is hard for another. XIV may not be hard compared to a lot of games but there can still be people who struggle to keep track of everything about their job and the fight at the same time.

But at the same time there's a world of difference between performing non-optimally and not trying at all. At least for normal content I find most players are forgiving as long as you are putting forth effect-trying to use your buffs and dots, using your main job mechanic in a way that makes sense even if it isn't perfect, pressing something most of the time instead of just standing around.

If you do have a disability serious enough that you can't keep up with "average" uptime/activity level it's probably best to let your party know or run with friends so you can be accommodated. Your party has no way of knowing if you're inactive due to being half afk or some sort of condition.

I also have to agree that there is such a thing as too easy. The fact that it's possible to go through a synced dungeon without casting a single heal suggests a serious balance issue.

On the subject of Shinryu I feel like it was a good difficulty for a story trial. I've PUG'd it a lot to farm for the card and I don't think I've ever had a group abandon. Most people can get the mechanics down after a few tries.

[SenorPatty]

About the RM difficulty...

I could certainly understand why some people considered it hard. I can see it from the perspective of someone who hasn't encountered game mechanics repetitively and those who did but played with those who haven't, thus making it "hard" enough to clear. Up to today, I still end up in dailies, especially Sirensong, where players don't know what the stack marker does. Imagine doing RM with at least 3-5 people like that and even RM can be a challenge.

Then comes the next part: Reaction to such players. Some people will explain very neutrally how some mechs work in RM. Of course, we can only hope the other players learn from that attentively and thus make RM easier or...you can get this:

"How do you not what X mech works by now? No one should have to tell you! You're a jump pot user or something?"

Which leads to

"Stfu, elitist pig. I don't play this game every single day like a no lifer"

Which leads to one more try, wipe and disband.

Honestly, I personally felt like the difficulty of RM simply lied in the patience of players: those who wanted to teach and those who would listen. Its what made any RM run either "easy" or "hard".

[Kaethra]

Diverging from the previous argument...

HyoMin, have you ever tried to imagine what it's like for genuine newcomers to MMOs? Or to gaming, for that matter. Most MMO players (heck, even myself) have a distorted view of what people consider "easy" and "hard".

Why did you choose portal instead of Dark Souls, the new Doom, or Planetside 2?

That's a rhetorical question.

A game cannot cater to everyone, a game that tries to do this is boring to all. You select a baseline difficulty and go from there. I have friends from Everquest, keyboard turners and ability clickers who would NOT be able to do the solo Duties in class/job or main scenario quests. I veer them away from FFXIV due to this. They would not, and COULD not ever enjoy the majority of the game due to their limitations.

So when forum posters call something easy that your mother and my friends would find super hardcore. They're right. It is easy, for the baseline that has been set. Some people aren't meant to get past the first goomba in World 1-1. Some people can do the solo duties and find them challenging, making some of the trials and extremes out of their reach. It happens. you simply do as much content as you are capable of.

As I said on the second page, there is varying levels of content. If one is too easy, go to the next one. If it gets to hard, work on it or go one stage back. This isn't meant to be condescending. Its just a fact. There is some content some people aren't meant to be doing. But fortunately for them, the content is in a pyramid. The easiest content makes up the majority and the hardest is the smallest amount. The amount of content favors the lower end. Its always been that way.