It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[dotsforlife]

It's appalling to see so many players play half-assed or spout nonsense with half baked knowledge. I sincerely hope this isn't a reflection of how they live their lives irl. A person won't get very far that way.

It's one thing to be uneducated on a class. It's another to be ignorant to it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Healers should only focus on healing its dps job to do most the damage on tank to hold the agro. Every time see whm use holy there is a delay before they can use a healing spell. So if a tank takes hard hit when there using holy they will die before they get chance to be healed. Happened to many times in parties been in and then group wipes.

Holy -> (Swiftcast) -> Aero III -> (Assize) (Presence of Mind) -> Stone IV spam -> Cure II -> Divine Bension -> Tetragrammaton

I can also intentionally allow a tank's HP to plummet and use Benediction but the above will always be available for every pull. Either you had a poor WHM or the tank wasn't using their CDs efficiently. In the latter case, my job isn't to compensate for your deficiencies.

[Fyce]

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

In 8300 hours of game time, I have yet to see a SMN/RDM who deliberatly refused to raise because "it's not my job", or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation, or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job". Even using enmity control abilities is argued for optimization way more often than "it's not my job to manage enmity" (but even then, we are talking about being active as much as possible. Taking a single cross skill to press once in a while has nothing to do with the point of sharing team effort when it comes to simply being active as much as possible).

I'm not saying that they don't exist. But the number of these DPS compared to the number of princess healers/tanks is not even close to being comparable.
Your use of "whataboutism" (ie: "What about the others!") completly falls flat. Besides, the behavior of other players doesn't justify yours. Saying "I won't DPS as a healer because one day I saw a SMN who refused to raise!" is absolutly stupid.

[Kazgrel]

Healers should only focus on healing its dps job to do most the damage on tank to hold the agro. Every time see whm use holy there is a delay before they can use a healing spell. So if a tank takes hard hit when there using holy they will die before they get chance to be healed. Happened to many times in parties been in and then group wipes.

Translation: HEALERS R 4 HEALZ ONREEEEEEEEEEEE

[Tridus]

In 8300 hours of game time, I have yet to see a SMN/RDM who deliberatly refused to raise because "it's not my job"

I have. They're outnumbered by the ones that do use it, and the ones that don't use it because they're not used to paying attention to the rest of the party and don't realize someone is dead immediately, but they do exist. I don't lump the "its not my job" and the "I didn't notice someone was dead" people into the same bucket though, because if you only ever play DPS it's honestly pretty easy to not pay much attention to party status. Us healers are watching it like a hawk so it's second nature to just keep doing that when we play RDM.

or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation

I've seen this too, but only once, and it was an RDM. PLD players vary in how often they'll use Clemency if the healers are up, but ones that just refuse if it's that or wipe are virtually unheard of.

or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job".

While nobody says this, I can forgive people who read it into the actions of every DPS who decides that it's more important to finish their cast than it is to get out of the way of the giant death beam.

"it's not my job to manage enmity"

THAT I hear all the time. It's seriously annoying.

There's plenty of bad habits and attitudes to go around amongst all the roles. This "it's my right to be idle!" one happens to be unique to healers, though. Acknowledging that other roles have their own issues doesn't justify healers doing the same.

[Tridus]

It's appalling to see so many players play half-assed or spout nonsense with half baked knowledge. I sincerely hope this isn't a reflection of how they live their lives irl. A person won't get very far that way.

It's one thing to be uneducated on a class. It's another to be ignorant to it.

It's called the Dunning–Kruger effect. Accurate self-evaluation requires a certain amount of skill and knowledge in the thing you're trying to evaluate. That is: you have to know a certain amount about healing to be able to evaluate how good a healer you are.

People who lack that base knowledge have no way to assess their own skills accurately, and usually mistakenly assume they are far more skilled/knowledgeable than they truly are. Thus, they honestly believe they're really good healers and that they know what they're talking about. This applies across everything humans do, and all of us are susceptible to it. It's a skill in itself to have the self-awareness to realize that you don't know anything and that your self-evaluations are wrong (hence philosophical quotes like "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing").

Or the colloquial: "You don't know what you don't know."

(Interestingly, competent people were found in the same studies to underestimate their own abilities. That leads to a situation where they don't understand that things are easy for them because they're highly skilled/knowledgeable, and instead think that those things must be easy for everyone.)

[Xerek]

I think this is drifting off the original topic. The idea originally seemed to focus on what is creating the mindset and meta. If a healer prefers to primarily heal...let me phrase this carefully...it's alright for them to feel that way. The problem is, FF XIV's current build simply isn't built that way. This is the meta the OP is referring to. The current idea is to actually require very little tanking/healing out of tanks/healers so that players of all skill levels can accomplish their primary goal in casual content. However, as already noted multiple times in this thread, that means that tanks and healers who are really good at their jobs are really *not* going to be tanks or healers. They are DPS with tank/heal support skills.

Some people don't like it. I liked the idea of wedging some damage into my healing in the past, and using the dreaded Cleric Stance dance. Back then, I still felt primarily like a healer. If I had, say, 75% time spend on heals/buffs and 25% on DPS, I'd be happy. I'd feel like a healer optimizing my playstyle by sneaking some DPS in. That's...not what I feel now. I feel like a sub-par DPS (I play AST and so literally have a DoT, a single-target and an AoE) that also heals a little here or there. I fully understand and empathize with healers that feel the same. At the start we were asked if we wanted to tank, heal or DPS. In reality, the choice now is do you want to DPS...and tank a little, DPS...and heal a little or just plain DPS 100%? And if you don't want to primarily DPS? Well, currently there is nothing for you in FF XIV.

Problem is, what can you do about it? Obvious solution would be for things to hit harder, prompting tanks and healers to work harder as tanks and healers...leaving less time for DPS. However, that comes with problems. First, there are fewer tanks and healers in the game. Ramp up the difficulty significantly, and you might lose some. Then there will be the outcry against tanks and healers when implemented and all of a sudden the run is rougher, along with complaints from people who would still expect a ton of DPS out of tanks and healers despite the change. There would be harassment and shaming, and eventually cries to nerf the content. Essentially, the damage is already done, and that makes it a lot harder to right things. As such, I don't see SE doing a thing about it. They're happy with things the way they are now, where everyone is primarily a DPS, because it allows players of a wider range of skills to play and clear. If you're looking for a role where DPS isn't you're primary focus...well...you won't find one. Not in FF XIV.

To those complaining about people not wanting to DPS. Please take a deep breath and try to be understanding. Things have gotten nasty in here. Keep in mind it comes down to playstyle. Some people would rather tank or heal. Some people might not want or like to DPS. That is playstyle preference, *not* laziness. They have every right to be frustrated by the game the way it is now and the expectations that is placing on people. Try and put yourself in their shoes before blasting them. Try to understand their motivations. No, I don't think a majority of them are advocating healing for 15% of the time and doing nothing else is ideal. They'd love to have things to do the other 85% of the time. Just...not DPS. And that is where this entire thing stems from.

[Enla]

Holy -> (Swiftcast) -> Aero III -> (Assize) (Presence of Mind) -> Stone IV spam -> Cure II -> Divine Bension -> Tetragrammaton

I can also intentionally allow a tank's HP to plummet and use Benediction but the above will always be available for every pull. Either you had a poor WHM or the tank wasn't using their CDs efficiently. In the latter case, my job isn't to compensate for your deficiencies.

This, Holy has a Stun affect as well so it's an absolutely ESSENTIAL part of any WHM's damage mitigation kit. In fact Holy has saved many a run for me where the tank was convinced cooldowns were some type of venereal disease and took so much damage that I had barely enough time to register what was happening. Holy essentially allows a redo of the start of a pull, giving you precious seconds to top the tank and throw in some DPS whilst giving yourself time to assess the situation. Are there healers who still use the spell like it's 2.55 and the nerf never happened? Yes, but those are just bad players over all.

[miraidensetsu]

snip

What I said is more like "and how about you, DPS that refuses to help or even get out of the crap?" and "why aren't the bad DPS being also called?" than what you think I said. Are you one of those DPS that refuses to help? No? You shouldn't be so mad, I'm not talking about you. But if you're one of those DPS and don't want to admit it, you should start to think what YOU are bringing to the party before point your finger at Tanks or Healers. Or you can just continue on this drama and enjoy the queue.

Wich one are you? Your conscience will tell. I can't respond that because I can't remember to be on the same party as you and I don't know how do you play. About my play style, my conscience is clear. I bring the best judgment I can make either to keep everyone alive as to make the most damage I can (including when begin to cast what).

[Stanelis]

The issue is mostly that FFXIV's jobs, roles and content are designed to be far too "simple" on a macro design standpoint. Basically the only way you're interacting with monsters is by damaging them while avoiding damage via movements. In serious content there are no coherent use of interrupts, crowd controls (even though those aspects were used in 2.0) or content designed to measure the ability of a tank to get asap the aggro of mobs and to hold it (such as what was expected of tank on twintania on T5 with the snakes).

Therefore, as the tanking jobs (and to a lesser extent the healing jobs, as the healing role is little more than buffing and healing people through direct and indirect heals, aside from DPS) and the tanking role is so simple, SE had to find a way to insuflate artificial difficulty to the roles (just as artificial difficulty is added to content through DPS checks), and that artificial difficulty is the requirement to DPS for healers and tank (that is intended to mask the flaws of the current game design).

Bottom line is you cannot expect a change in the current tanking and healing design unless SE decides to overhaul its game design, but for some reason I don't really see that happening anytime soon.