DPS is the job of DPS.

[Squintina]

This was a hot topic 3 years ago before I left and is still now.

I never remembered being this bad in a certain other game.

...and before someone says something like "those other games made tanks/heal jobs more integral". That might be true, but at some point as people get stronger, everything becomes a little less necessary. I remember having to DPS as heals while doing ICC10/25 in WoW as we all got stronger, and even one boss where I could DPS the entire time while the other healer would heal every 10 seconds and DPS the rest of the time, and no one made a stink either way (even though literally everyone had parser addons), same with choosing between 2 tanks that could both hold aggro and both knew the fights and picking the one that had the higher dps and telling the other one he could only join on his DPS spec because his tank spec didn't do enough deeps - answer was usually "ok, one sec".

When a person like me, who found WoW raids to be extremely toxic, can remember a time it which it seemed less toxic than what's shown in this game (which is usually friendlier when it comes to quests, helping, and other non-instanced content), you know this community's got a problem - too bad I don't have a solution other than just getting over it from both sides :/

And I certainly never saw that attitude in pug dungeons ever, but holy carp it's in this game even in leveling dungeons.
I don't understand either side - why people care so much as long as they don't wipe, nor why others enjoy having time doing nothing when content gets easy.

[Paladinleeds]

snip

The reason it's more pervasive here, is because tank/healer specs in World of Warcraft (I'm going to name it, just like I'd name "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" as "Lord Voldermort") do pitiful damage. At least, pitiful compared to what tanks and healers can push out in this game. We're talking 60-70%+ of a DPS's damage that can be done by healers and tanks. Trust me, that really is nothing to scoff at, and makes a MUCH bigger difference compared to WoW tank/healer specs (I used to play WoW btw, did some raiding back in Cata too, as a Resto Druid). Now, I'm not the sort of person to care over numbers too much (even in Extreme primals, I'll probably care more in Savage though), but I can understand why people do see them as the holy grail in tanks/healers here. Our tanks/healers are much more DPS capable compared to T/H of other games.

And, to counter the point about ICC10/25. Chances are (although I could be wrong here), you were in a static. Generally speaking, statics here work much the same way as statics do in WoW. Everyone is already on the same page, and knows it's in their best interests to take what's best for the team. But when you head outside of statics, you're likely going to encounter much more conflicting opinions. Why? Because you're not in a group of people who know and understand each other. Not everyone is going to be on the same page. That's where the conflict comes from.

[Squintina]

And, to counter the point about ICC10/25. Chances are (although I could be wrong here), you were in a static. Generally speaking, statics here work much the same way as statics do in WoW. Everyone is already on the same page, and knows it's in their best interests to take what's best for the team. But when you head outside of statics, you're likely going to encounter much more conflicting opinions. Why? Because you're not in a group of people who know and understand each other. Not everyone is going to be on the same page. That's where the conflict comes from.

Sometimes it was static, sometimes it was pug, sometime it was half-static half-pug. Depends who actually showed up. We went on no matter what. It didn't matter if 10/10 or 1/10 of the "static" showed up(well more like we had a guild and a calendar and people showed up if they felt like it, that was our "static"), we went on and pugged all the missing slots (same with 25) from global chat. There were plenty of conflicts but it was over loot and DPS numbers from actual DPS.

I guess what I really don't understand is why people care so much. It's just a game.
If it were me my natural way of playing is to heal when I can (I like to top, so there'll be some overheals) and do some light DPS on the side when possible. Maybe not the best DPS rotation, but just something to keep me from daydreaming.

But if a group said "we want you ready to heal at any time, so don't dps", I'd just go "sure" and try to keep myself paying attention somehow
If a group said "we want more dps to make the fight go a bit faster", I'd just go "sure" and try a little harder on the DPS rotation
And if a group asked either one but I didn't feel comfortable for whatever reason, I'd just say so and expect them to understand.

I guess I'm just too mellow to understand this everlasting debate.

But y'all have fun debating!

[Shurrikhan]

I know! It was one of the first edgelording lessons I learned when I kept swapping between them before reading the tooltip. All the guides I read were 3.0 DRK, so for the first 5 levels or so, I actually played DRK like 3.0 DRK Luckily, those levels were spent with my squadron, which is precisely why I chose to only tank with them or FC mates in the beginning. []...I am not trying to provide situations where DS should not be active. I'm only stating why I don't/didn't see it as a penalty. But I am also factoring overall group DPS, and whether or not dropping Grit truly benefits this DPS if healer DPS is sacrificed as a result.

To be fair, it would be neat if there were situations where Darkside could viably be dropped. In Heavensward I used to do so before huge speedruns pulls if sudden adds had forced me to overspend mana a bit to recover, meaning I wouldn't have my mana at or near cap before the next mass pull, but with the changes to it and Grit - Syphon Strike, at most I just refresh Grit just before my last couple Syphon Strikes. The button seemingly exists only to be able to be clicked off during long jump mechanics now.

Of course, I am talking about any content where the instance can't be facerolled, and when all participants playing optimally, DPS is shifted between the offensive/defensive mindset of the healer and tank.

Unfortunately, those are far and few between, and take a lot of job knowledge, understanding of conventions, and tracking in order to spot. You essentially want to be able to track your healer's CDs just as you do your own, at least to the effect that you know when they'll refresh to within the duration of whichever of your own buffs you'd be counting on in the meantime.

Luckily, you at least don't seem to be falling for the idea that healer dps and tank dps are directly interchangeable. The windows and rates by which your health will fall into levels that demand a global of healing, and what can be gained during that time depends entirely on what damage is newly allowed by reducing that rate and thereby stretching those windows. As as rule of thumb, though, if they don't have to pop abilities to keep you up, and they can maintain their highest per-execute spells (like Aero III) so long as they play well, lean towards your own damage. Its easy to assume that healers can make more out of that mitigation than they actually can, or are more diminished without it than they really are.

[Reynhart]

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

I want the healers that compensate for tank1's overfocus on its long big deeps.

And I'll skip over the fact that losing 1000 DPS can not be solely put on stance uptime.

[Shurrikhan]

...and before someone says something like "those other games made tanks/heal jobs more integral". That might be true, but at some point as people get stronger, everything becomes a little less necessary. I remember having to DPS as heals while doing ICC10/25 in WoW as we all got stronger, and even one boss where I could DPS the entire time while the other healer would heal every 10 seconds and DPS the rest of the time, and no one made a stink either way (even though literally everyone had parser addons), same with choosing between 2 tanks that could both hold aggro and both knew the fights and picking the one that had the higher dps and telling the other one he could only join on his DPS spec because his tank spec didn't do enough deeps - answer was usually "ok, one sec".

I think all that might just have something to do with a lesser degree of role fixation, or certainly within the experience of most players playing during that time. Most "who's the best equipped to..." within any particular global was usually a trick question in terms of role.
Nominal physical incoming damage at low expertise: who should take it?
The melee DPS over there!
What, why?
Because he's Arms.
So?
Massive counterattacks.
More than the tank?
Hugely.

Heck, you still had some older style talents that outright encouraged DPS to swap in and take some damage, or tanks to occasionally heal, etc.; they were still primarily just "toolkits", free from oversimplication.

Plus, PvP simply took off both more highly and more openly there, and when strategies aren't reducible to tank-and-spank, resource-exchange, where a bit of DPS here saves required healing there or a bit of tanking here costs additional healing on the enemies' part, is a given. They weren't told "this is your box; squat in it," by the design or the community, so even in progression raids there was just one rule -- do whatever's most effective, given the current and upcoming condition of the group.

[Fhaerron]

If have 1 question when I saw the title of this thread.

Why do I have Sword Oath and why do I have GB & RA combos and the only thing they do is deal high damage?

[Reynhart]

Why do I have Sword Oath

To kill things when playing solo and when you're not tanking.

why do I have GB & RA combos and the only thing they do is deal high damage?

Maybe you should have read the first post and not just the title.

[Fhaerron]

To kill things when playing solo and when you're not tanking.

Maybe you should have read the first post and not just the title.

But I do use Sword Oath, Deliverance, remove grit when tanking. And I use 'DPS' melds.

Isn't it a good thing I'm trying my hardest to speed things up?

[KaivaC]

remove grit when tanking. And I use 'DPS' melds.

Isn't it a good thing I'm trying my hardest to speed things up?

Oh hell, please tell me that this was a joke post. Please.