DPS is the job of DPS.

[InfiniDragon]

Thanks for pointing out the same thing I did captain obvious. Anymore in-game lessons you wish to enlighten me with?

Well, not to be rude, but you sort of did say that:

The tank's mitigation allows me to DPS more as healer since I can spend my gcds on rocks instead of cure 2s, which in turn makes up the 1000 dps difference, and no mobs are trying to eat my face.

In any content that isn't over-geared the offense of one is traded by the offense of the other, especially 4-man.

Which is not correct. In any content other than 4 man (multiple mobs), tank DPS will be punished harder than a healer can make up for with their own DPS if the tank sits in stance. What Bourne_Endeavor said is correct.

[Dualgunner]

Then that's on them being dumb. Using cooldowns in no way negatively affects dps.

[Dualgunner]

Issue with your numbers is you're equating healer dps to tank dps. That's not gonna work well since tanks do much more damage than healers. I'd amend your numbers to 20% for tanks and 10% for healers as better ballpark numbers.

[Kaethra]

Issue with your numbers is you're equating healer dps to tank dps. That's not gonna work well since tanks do much more damage than healers. I'd amend your numbers to 20% for tanks and 10% for healers as better ballpark numbers.

The numbers are irrelevant if the group wants the healer to heal, or the tank to only tank. The point of the thread was a 'call' for a change in PUG mentalities. Statics and premades are NOT going to do what you see in PUGs. They're going to do whatever it is they think is best, which isn't always what PUGs want.

PUGs want fast but convenient runs. Which means push the envelope but no so far as to step outside their comfort zone.

The contradiction happens when you have a healer who wants to damage and people who think healers ought to heal. Lets be honest here. The reason people don't want healers doing damage isn't because they're afraid the heals won't go through. The reason is they don't wish for the healer role (and tank role for some as well) to be measured like DPS. DPS Roles in MMOs by their very nature are competitive. Its an aggressive role, a role where your duty is to put out as many numbers as possible while staying alive.

People are uncomfortable with the idea of that competitiveness being present in Tank and Healer roles. That's the real issue. They want to be measured on these simple facets:

1. Did the tank hold agro. Tank did good.
2. Did no one in the group die? Healer did good.

But imagine if you had to do those while pushing numbers. Now a tank can be clearly measured against another tank as well as healer can be measured against other healers.

Did everyone stay alive? Great, both healers did this. Now lets see which one did more DPS. Uh oh!
Did the tanks hold agro? Great, both tanks did that. Now lets see which one did more DPS. No! You can't bring up the parses!

And you could see why people would be worried. Pushing numbers is dangerous. Time it poorly and you or someone else drops. Then your primary role is definitely in question.

This is my opinion. For what its worth. Its irrelevant since groups ultimately decide by majority purpose. But I'm going to show where I stand so people aren't quick to get offended or defensive.. many probably haven't read to this point before responding, will be interesting to call them out on that.

I personally don't really care if a Tank drops defensive stance to do damage, or a healer drops a few GCD's for damage. As long as they serve their primary role. I'm golden. If they throw some damage in to push things along faster. Its just gravy on top. If they don't, it won't bother me. To be quite frank, and a bit narcissistic. I can do enough damage to pull a group through in a reasonable amount of time for everything that requires 4 players. That's assuming the other DPS was alive enough to press accept on the queue (he can lick his monitor for the next 15-20 minutes if they want), the tank keeps stuff off me, and the healer keeps the tank alive, and me as well for those unavoidable damage mechanics.

And that's the PUG content. 90% of it. One DPS who knows somewhat what they are doing, one licking their monitor, a healer watching bars, and a tank getting things attention. That's all you need. I don't get why there is thread after thread about this. On one hand I sort of agree with the peeps who don't want to DPS in non-Roles. But I can't because they are being Dishonest. If every GCD was needed for a heal, and every pull would destroy a tank out of tank stance. I could see their argument.

Its not like that. They know that too. But they go on about how tanks should tank and healers should heal, cross their arms, stick out their lower lip, and give you a look like its the 11th Commandment. I would dare say if they would come out and be honest, and say they simply want to play a role that isn't measured in its numbers, that more people would be considerate to their position. But they're being dishonest and people can sense there's BS going around. ANd that is why some are being rather ugly about it in their responses. Can't blame them. Liars and Frauds are right there with Thieves.

Not calling anyone a liar here. At worst, many of you are fibbing. Still not a great thing to do though. Just be honest and humble. Just ask your groups and this general community not to expect you do well at damage. They might surprise you. And if they act like jerks, then you can assume a moral high ground. As I said, I personally don't care what anyone else's numbers are in PUG content. Just my own.

Of course this WHOLE dynamic changes when we talk about content a little bit beyond what PUGs can manage.. you know, like Savage stuff. But that is beyond the scope of this thread. Roles aren't set in stone there, and class abilities become more important. And community opinion means squat to statics.

[Leowilde]

Shouldn't all these dps-threads be in the dps-forum instead?

[saber_alter]

i would say this thread is poor bait, but there's 13 pages of evidence to refute that claim.

[Gemina]

Even if Darkside cancels out Grit’s damage penalty, it’s still a penalty. It’s net-zero with Grit+Darkside; it’s +20% with just Darkside. Darkside doesn’t require Grit to be used, and there’s never a reason now to not have Darkside up 100% of the time since they removed the steady MP drain from it. So it’s still a technically a penalty.

In the context that I see, the +20% is a benefit when active, not a 0% penalty when it is not. I do get what you're saying though, and when trying to push tank DPS as much as possible, you are indeed penalized having Grit active. I just have difficulty assigning it the term "penalty"

You technically did:

No. She said, "Umm, there are still damage penalties in Grit. And I never said Grit doesn't have damage penalties. The tooltip clearly defines that it does. I am pretty sure I said with both Grit and Darkside up there is no damage penalty, but as I already said, I understand why there is still a penalty since it is not possible for a tank to cause the same damage with both Grit and DS up, opposed to just DS.

[HyoMinPark]

In the context that I see, the +20% is a benefit when active, not a 0% penalty when it is not. I do get what you're saying though, and when trying to push tank DPS as much as possible, you are indeed penalized having Grit active. I just have difficulty assigning it the term "penalty"

There will never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is using ONLY Grit, and never using Darkside with it, though. There will also never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is NOT using Darkside. Especially now that SE removed the MP drain from the ability. The “+20% when active” isn’t entirely relevant because Darkside should always be active. That being said, Grit+Darkside may cancel each other out in terms of loss and gain, but Darkside alone would still be +20%. Grit is still a damage penalty in that sense because it cancels out the gain.

Unless they buffed darkside to +20%, there's still a -5% penalty.

They did buff Darkside up at Stormblood launch. It’s now +20% as opposed to Heavensward’s +15%. :3

[Gemina]

There will never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is using ONLY Grit, and never using Darkside with it, though. There will also never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is NOT using Darkside. Especially now that SE removed the MP drain from the ability.

I know! It was one of the first edgelording lessons I learned when I kept swapping between them before reading the tooltip. All the guides I read were 3.0 DRK, so for the first 5 levels or so, I actually played DRK like 3.0 DRK Luckily, those levels were spent with my squadron, which is precisely why I chose to only tank with them or FC mates in the beginning.

20% when active” isn’t entirely relevant because Darkside should always be active. That being said, Grit+Darkside may cancel each other out in terms of loss and gain, but Darkside alone would still be +20%. Grit is still a damage penalty in that sense because it cancels out the gain.

I'm not arguing with you. And I am not trying to provide situations where DS should not be active. I'm only stating why I don't/didn't see it as a penalty. But I am also factoring overall group DPS, and whether or not dropping Grit truly benefits this DPS if healer DPS is sacrificed as a result. Of course, I am talking about any content where the instance can't be facerolled, and when all participants playing optimally, DPS is shifted between the offensive/defensive mindset of the healer and tank.