Red Mage could use some help.

[Llugen]

idk I played RDM just fine during prog, but now that SMN is really good yeah you'll probably never catch me playing RDM again until Gammascape (affectionately named), and hopefully not even then. The only reason I play either of them is necessity to be versatile in the caster role, which is of course always a good idea, but still frustrating when you're shunned off your main job.

The idea that you "need" to have a RDM for progression is abhorrent to me, and the fact that groups desire one so strongly for both its support, progression utility, and simplistic rotation/consistent damage makes it all the more sickening. This illustrates a big part of the reason that I'm very (very very) opposed to buffing RDM damage, at least relative to BLM/SMN (I will concede buffing it to be stronger than BRD would be nice). Based on this thread, perhaps you (all) too have felt what it's like to have groups bully/coerce you into playing a job that you don't want to play. The feeling pretty much is awful.

The job is THE BEST progression job hands down, and while it may not be "competitive" with SMN/BLM/BRD for post-prog, it's still very capable of clearing the content efficiently and effectively with its party support (and to be honest its damage is certainly not weak; if you're looking for assistance with how/when to do what on the job, hit me up). Furthermore, it's not like people "don't want" people to play it; no one is going to complain about having a RDM in their group. I will assert once again that the real issue with the caster pool in general at the moment is the fact that BLM is falsely advertised ("strongest" caster) and that the physical meta is just way too strong, NOT that RDM doesn't do enough damage on its own.

[zuzu-bq]

The more the game becomes predictible, the more people will say X job is needed or X job becomes highly wanted. It's a PvE game with barely any RNG coming out from boss so some jobs just become amazingly good at 100% of the situations and you can only have 8 players. It's more on SE design's fault than anything else. The less the game actually punishes you for deaths the better raising becomes, which is something Deltascpae doesn't really do. It's not RDM itself. Fights just let your raise thgouth to prgress or learn them and RDM Verraise can abuse of this and speed up the learning process. Granted it's something hard to balance around and I don't think RDM's floor skillcap of damage should be balance around it at all.

[Kacho_Nacho]

On this point I respectfully disagree. It is only with harder content that RDM rez utility is truly valued, and progressively less so as players become more proficient and better equipped.

In content most players arguably spend the most time playing, the ability to instacast rez on demand is so niche as to be easily dismissed. If we’re talking the occasional resurrection of a lag death or mechanics failure, even that of the healer, that’s nothing a SMN can’t take care of while still performing the primary DPS function at a much higher level.

We're just going to agree to disagree.

The ability to instacast a rez on demand is useful on Odin and all the later Trials. You must complete many of these hard trials to continue the story. The ability to spare your healers MPs by insta-raising dead characters isn't a niche which can be easily dismissed. It is utility.

With that said, red mages should not be balanced solely around this ability. Each job should be evaluated by what it brings to the table and their damage per second, their offensive buffs, their defensive buffs, and their ability to heal and raise. Right now, I'd say red mages should be smack dab in the middle of the rankings of the damage dealers with the selfish damage dealers being further ahead in their damage to make up for their lack utility.

Now some players have posted that other jobs deserve more attention than Red Mages. To which, I reply, "So?"

This isn't a competition, folks. Every job in the game could probably use a little love from S.E.

What none of us are privy to is how much a utility weighs versus another utility. Nor, do we know how much damage per second weighs against a utility. So, post your posts explaining your dissatisfaction which certain points of your favorite job and don't begrudge those who favor a different job than you. Their concerns are as legitimate as yours.

[Llugen]

Unfortunately, it really is a competition when there is one allotted position for a caster per group. If your main is BLM and literally every group wants a RDM or a SMN, you either have to switch or suffer. Same ish thing with RDM and SMN right now, except to a lesser degree to be quite honest.

And really we ARE privy to how much damage is translated over from utility, it's called math and also described on everyone's favorite leaderboard website.

[Dualgunner]

We're just going to agree to disagree.

The ability to instacast a rez on demand is useful on Odin and all the later Trials. You must complete many of these hard trials to continue the story. The ability to spare your healers MPs by insta-raising dead characters isn't a niche which can be easily dismissed. It is utility.

Just gotta point out: verraise isn't a skill RDM even has until Lv64. I think that's after Susano in level progression; the only two story trials verraise would be helpful for would be Lakshmi and Shinryu.

[Cynfael]

We're just going to agree to disagree.

The ability to instacast a rez on demand is useful on Odin and all the later Trials. You must complete many of these hard trials to continue the story. The ability to spare your healers MPs by insta-raising dead characters isn't a niche which can be easily dismissed. It is utility.

I see where you're coming from. I suppose I don't look at it the same way because content like Odin is a "one-and-done" deal from my perspective, especially at this point where current content is lvl 70 and Odin was lvl 50 (and, as Dualgunner points out, a level-sync party wouldn't even have Verraise). Odin is also unnecessary for story progression, though it's good to experience for its own sake and possibly for glamour. However, it's still kind of sad if we have to point to old trials to highlight the usefulness of RDM utility outside of Savage progression, and saving healers MP from rezzing isn't the main benefit, anyway. Ideally the healers should be handling rezzes since they lose less DPS for doing so; RDM's power is in being able to rez quickly and without Swiftcast in the event that the healers are occupied or incapacitated.

When I think of daily content, I think more of activities like Expert Roulette that many players participate in to get their weekly tomes, and I still don't see much value to bringing RDM over any other DPS Job as far as gameplay advantage goes (unless you are actually anticipating having a horrible healer or generally terrible party).

In any case, I think we agree on the central point that RDM could use a bit of love, and I also agree that one Job's possible need for adjustment doesn't necessarily take priority over any other Job's similar need. The back-and-forth about which DPS Job was first in line is kind of silly considering that SE is perfectly capable and occasionally willing to lay down adjustments for more than one Job per patch.

[JohnnyDevo]

Unfortunately, it really is a competition when there is one allotted position for a caster per group.

Who invented that limitation? A party could have a BLM, a SMN, and a RDM and there'd be no penalties to the party.

Likewise, many groups choose to go no casters at all, also without penalty to the party.

You are absolutely correct that BLM needs to have the highest damage of the casters. What I simply don't understand is why you're so dead-set on bringing RDM up from out of literally dead-last, especially when RDM clearly doesn't have #1 utility. Both casters need buffs. Please don't use BLM's position as some kind of twisted justification for the bad spot that RDM is in.

[Llugen]

Standard party comp. Nothing else needs to be said about this, really.

No caster group option is why we must upheave the physical meta.

RDM should be the lowest damage caster with the best party utility, which is why I've said about half a dozen times do not increase its single target damage but DO increase its party utility since SMN was overtuned.

Relating it to BLM is exactly why it needs not to get single target damage buffs, because high single target damage is (supposed to be) the domain of BLM.

Let me know if I need to make anything else I've said more clear.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

So we can't have literally any single target damage buffs (which we need) because BLM hasn't gotten any yet? If I remember correctly the purview of BLM is highest damage, 0 utility. Every single class needs to do well at single target damage with notable exceptions that need to be at the top. Red Mage needs mild buffs to offensive utility and ability potency. And honestly at this point I would like Verraise to have a 30 second cooldown. Then it's technically better then Swiftcast+Raise but not out of hand.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Just gotta point out: verraise isn't a skill RDM even has until Lv64. I think that's after Susano in level progression; the only two story trials verraise would be helpful for would be Lakshmi and Shinryu.

Oops!

Totally thought red mage got verraise earlier. Sorry everyone.

*abashed*

Off topic: Isn't my hat great, Dualgunner?