Red Mage could use some help.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

...

Not liking you is not flaming. Every single time people try to have a productive discussion about other casters, you show up and splutter about BLM without fail. You declare things as absolute truths that are nothing more than opinions. You have no objectivity and you were among the "nerf RDM first" crowd that popped up in the first few weeks because of a bug then you joined the "Vercure/Verraise is too strong" crowd. Now you're in this category of "Well if BLM doesn't get anything why should RDM?". By all appearances you have a tacit grudge against the class for god knows why.

So no, I don't like you. I don't like people like you. You come in here and derail threads because you not getting BLM buffs is a personal affront to you for some reason. God forbid anyone else have any issues because BLM has some.

[SpeckledBurd]

So? I'll concede a bit on MNK, but DRK has been asking for longer. If we're playing by "sit down and wait your turn", it's not BLM's turn until DRK is buffed.

The issues Monk has are so much more longstanding than Stormblood it's just sad. The complaints people have with Fist Stances, Arm of the Destroyer, Perfect Balance and One Ilm Punch have existed since ARR and the issues with Purification and Tornado Kick have existed since Heavensward. Just because Stormblood introduced a whole new host of issues with the Jobs kit doesn't reset the timer for how long the Job has needed some attention.

That said job Balance and quality of life isn't a zero sum game. Just because Red Mage needs more damage doesn't mean Black Mage doesn't also need more damage or that Samurai might need more damage, or that Monk doesn't need its trashfire of a kit to actually get looked at with a critical eye.

[Dualgunner]

Just because Stormblood introduced a whole new host of issues with the Jobs kit doesn't reset the timer for how long the Job has needed some attention.

That said job Balance and quality of life isn't a zero sum game. Just because Red Mage needs more damage doesn't mean Black Mage doesn't also need more damage or that Samurai might need more damage, or that Monk doesn't need its trashfire of a kit to actually get looked at with a critical eye.

You're absolutely right on all fronts. I am not personally intimately knowledgeable about monk, so I decided not to press there. You are also right about it not being a zero sum game which was my point--but I was admittedly very heated at that moment in time and I apologize for lacking clarity.

[Llugen]

I explained this in the other thread, but I'll explain it here again shortly and sweetly:

ANY amount of damage creep from RDM onto BLM will drastically reduce BLM's value. The ONLY reason to bring BLM into a group is its pure damage output, so if the gap between RDM and BLM is lowered, then the value of bringing a BLM is gone. So yes, in this sense, it REALLY IS zero-sum, whether we like it or not. (Why take BLM's marginally stronger damage if RDM does almost as much and buffs the whole party?)

Increased offensive utility is a must, but increased single target damage, on account of this, is a must not.

[JohnnyDevo]

I explained this in the other thread, but I'll explain it here again shortly and sweetly:

ANY amount of damage creep from RDM onto BLM will drastically reduce BLM's value. The ONLY reason to bring BLM into a group is its pure damage output, so if the gap between RDM and BLM is lowered, then the value of bringing a BLM is gone. So yes, in this sense, it REALLY IS zero-sum, whether we like it or not. (Why take BLM's marginally stronger damage if RDM does almost as much and buffs the whole party?)

Increased offensive utility is a must, but increased single target damage, on account of this, is a must not.

"Children in africa are starving, therefore your credit card debt issue is invalid".

I know BLM is in a bad spot. But frankly, I don't care because I don't play BLM. Buff blm, sure, whatever. But I'm saying don't leave RDM hanging.

[Dualgunner]

You keep saying that as if Red Mage would be buffed in a vacuum. If Black Mage got the buffs it needed, the marginal buffs RDM is asking for--the stuff to put it at least above BRD--would not close the gulf, it just wouldn't be as big a gulf as if BLM got its buffs alone.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

There you go stating opinions as fact again. You realize balance teams are not limited to working on a single class right? Red Mage needs mild amount of both increased offensive utility (essentially rDPS contribution) and single target damage increase. Again, as many people have stated already and you won't listen. We don't want Red Mage to be the strongest, we want it to be competitive aside from progression.

[Llugen]

You're not wrong, I suppose, but I would be VERY skeptical that they would give BLM such strong buffs as to "keep" such a gap there.

Never forget the golden rule: groups want to be fed, not to feed. Groups will always favor stacking utility together over feeding one player. This is the bigest part of the reason that DRG+BRD+MCH+NIN work so well together and other jobs can't seem to "break in" to this meta.

Sooner, they should just dispose of the idea of "raw damage as utility" completely, because utility IS damage, just damage from the party not from the player.

[Dualgunner]

I wasn't a fan of "raw damage as utility" since Heavensward. I think it traces all the way back to the old days of DRG vs MNK, where DRG was weaker than MNK but brought out more damage from BRD, who themselves brought more damage out of casters with Foe's. But I wasn't very active in learning how the game actually worked back then.

I do wish that jobs that were added with the sole intent of their damage being buffs for others' damage were relegated to a Support Role, rather than lumped into the DPS role.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

ANY amount of damage creep from RDM onto BLM will drastically reduce BLM's value.

I'll be blunt. BLM has no value. It's entirely worthless right now because everything it does, SMN does it better. If SE refuses to give BLM the substantial buff it needs without nerfing SMN, it won't matter a hoot what happens to RDM relative to the caster meta. On the other hand, if they do make proper adjustments, any moderate increase to RDM's DPS won't impact BLM whatsoever.